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European Football

Discussions on football in other leagues around Europe.
 

Re: European Football

Postby MUTU » Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:39 pm

Can't imagine the corruption there will be in a league featuring both Real Madrid and Juventus, and with clubs in the lower end of the table with no threat of relegation.
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Re: European Football

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:40 pm

ramsej84 wrote:Perez just said that if this happens they will organize their own World Cup...

And who will play? There are 6 English clubs and I doubt they have 11 English players between them.
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Re: European Football

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:41 pm

MUTU wrote:Can't imagine the corruption there will be in a league featuring both Real Madrid and Juventus, and with clubs in the lower end of the table with no threat of relegation.

Whose presidents are also President and Vice-President of the league, respectively.
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Re: European Football

Postby T4L10N » Mon Apr 19, 2021 2:47 pm

FCBayernMunchen wrote:
ramsej84 wrote:Perez just said that if this happens they will organize their own World Cup...

And who will play? There are 6 English clubs and I doubt they have 11 English players between them.


Its really funny idea, or do they mean the club world cup? :coffee:
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Re: European Football

Postby Ottomeister87 » Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:02 pm

And you can bet that Real would be the first official winner aswell. :coffee:
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Re: European Football

Postby Dumbledore7 » Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:03 pm

The thing is, even with all the non-Bundesliga German players banned, Löw still wouldn't call up Müller, Boateng and Hummels :lol:
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Re: European Football

Postby MUTU » Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:12 pm

Wait so the Premier League will become a big farmers' league now?
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Re: European Football

Postby MUTU » Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:14 pm

Dumbledore7 wrote:The thing is, even with all the non-Bundesliga German players banned, Löw still wouldn't call up Müller, Boateng and Hummels

No worries, Podolski and Oezil are not in ESL.
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Re: European Football

Postby aterford » Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:16 pm

FCBayernMunchen wrote:Kind of unfair for the players though. What happens here, legally? Will they have the right to annul their contracts given changed circumstances?


I would think so, but it just depends. For instance, I know there are some players whose contracts are valid only so long as their club remains in the top division; if their club is relegated then their contract is void. It will depend on the wording/structure of it of course, but I would wager that typically many contracts are going to specify not just things like the length, salary, etc, but also the league for which it is applicable. I would expect that in many cases players' contracts would either a.) not specifically name the Super League as a 'contracted competition' (one would think this is the case for pretty much everyone) or b.) specifically name a limited number of competitions and exclude others. Suspect there are many cases where a player could get an attorney involved and likely have their contract voided if they so desire. Either way many sports attorneys throughout Europe are going to be licking their chops, one way or another it will be a nice payday for them.
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Re: European Football

Postby MUTU » Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:19 pm

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Re: European Football

Postby Hardrade » Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:21 pm

Super Cup? More like Super Coup d’Etat

The signatories have pledged to an ironclad 23 year contract, so this is pretty much a done deal. This is gonna be huge - with projected revenue doubling that of UCL. I wonder how this will develop, can’t say I’ve been this much intrigued about football before
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Re: European Football

Postby Lahmies » Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:29 pm

This is going to make the economical gap between clubs even larger. Many smaller clubs/divisions could disappear. This is so absurd. Where do these "super" teams think their future players will come from? Their own academies? Not bloody likely.
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Re: European Football

Postby T4L10N » Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:36 pm

Lahmies wrote:This is going to make the economical gap between clubs even larger. Many smaller clubs/divisions could disappear. This is so absurd. Where do these "super" teams think their future players will come from? Their own academies? Not bloody likely.


Yeah, and that the supporters of this idea fail to understand. When this happens and they fail to attract the best players (not the ones joining Chinese super league for money, just an example) then how are they going to generate their big revenues? It all depends what players prefer at the end: playing for money (ESL) or Domestic League, CL, WC/EC titles. I am sure (and hope) most of them will choose the latter.
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Re: European Football

Postby aterford » Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:44 pm

Dumbledore7 wrote:This move must have been based on the American model which, without question, is the best commercial sporting infrastructure in the world. The NFL is basically a trade association of all the clubs, all with interest in the competition. No middle man with vested interest. In lieu of relegation/promotion, they have salary caps and major/minor leagues. The clubs can actually vote on issues.

Consider a hypothetical scenario where we have the domestic leagues, Champions League and international football as they are, but without the existence of the corrupt FIFA/UEFA. Nice, right? Well, that's the world we're heading towards with this.

It looks bad now because there's a split between "traditional" competitions vs. the "elite" super league, but make no mistake - eventually their goal is to run football. It's a forceful way of breaking away from FIFA/UEFA, which is what most people want anyway. It's not going to remain an association of 12 clubs, but of 100 clubs.

There will be small clubs joining in, who can't break through "organically" in the current system. They'll get more clubs to follow suit and eventually all of them (because, well, money). It's not just the single super league, they'll eventually have their "minor leagues" i.e. some version of the domestic competitions. They'll host international competitions eventually if there's demand for it, and even better because they wouldn't fit in international matches in the club schedule.

It will be a very rocky change, but it's inevitable and I think it'll be a better football landscape after the transition...if my theory is correct, anyway.


MUTU wrote:My prediction is that all this is one big bluff to reach a compromise with UEFA to create a European Super League as a division higher to all current top domestic leagues in Europe.

The idea I have is that the Champions League becomes an actual league. Teams participating in it won't play in their domestic league. The worst performing team in every country at the end of the season would play 2 leg playoffs against the domestic league winner to see whether there is promotion/relegation.

Furthermore, the teams that reach the Europa League semifinals would replace the bottom four teams in the new Champions League.

This way, it would still be a UEFA competition with the most elite clubs playing every week, but at the same time still be an open competition based on merit.


I am wondering if the ultimate goal isn't some sort of hybrid between the two of these ideas (and then some)

Long post incoming. Just right off the bat - I hope this first bit doesn't come off as patronizing, but I'm not sure how familiar people are here with how many NA sports leagues are structured, so going to walk through some basic explanation. Not because I think anyone's dumb, but it's just totally foreign to many. I will put in spoiler tag to save some space; if you are familiar with NA league structures then feel free to skip, if not you may find it informative.

Spoiler: show
So, I'll take the NFL as an example, as it's the most successful and prominent league in North America. And, in terms of *league revenue* it's the richest single league in the world and it's not close, something like 12 billion. MLB and NBA are 2 and 3 behind it, it's not until 4 that we find our first football league, the EPL of course. Anyways, just a little aside.

If you're not familiar the NFL is made up of 32 teams. It is structured into two 'conferences' called the NFC (National Football Conference) and the AFC (American Football Conference), so 16 teams per conference. Each conference is broken up into four 'divisions' of 4 teams each (NFC North, NFC South, NFC East, NFC West, and so on for AFC).

Now the way scheduling is set for the NFL is pretty formulaic. I'll use my favorite team for example, the Packers. They play in the NFC North.
So, every year, first and foremost you know you're playing each of your *division* opponents twice (one home game, one away game for each opponent, so six games). For the Packers that's two games against the Bears, two games against the Lions, and two games against the Vikings.
Then you play four games against one of the divisions that is in your conference. So, for example, last season Green Bay was drawn against the NFC South, so they played the Falcons, the Buccaneers, the Saints, and the Panthers. Two of these are home games, and two are road games. So far, 10 games.
Then you will also play four games against a division from the other conference, so if you're in the NFC you'll play four games against one AFC division, or vice versa. Last season for GB it was the AFC South, so played against the Colts, Jaguars, Texans, and Titans. Again, two at home and two on the road, bringing you to 14 games.
Finally there are two remaining games from the remaining two divisions in your own conference. So, Packers play in NFC North, and last season played against the NFC South also, so the remaining two games would be against a team from the NFC East and one from the NFC West, and so on.
On top of that, all of this is on a yearly rotation, to ensure you are playing everyone roughly in an even frequency. With four divisions per conference and four games per season against one division from each conference, it means every 4 years you are guaranteed to play every team and then in another 4 years you will have played them all twice at least, and so on.

ANYWAYS, on top of this, conference/division impacts how the postseason is set up. The top teams from each division are automatically into the postseason. Here it's done by W-L-D record. In addition, the two best non-Division winners are in the playoffs too (Well, now it's three as they just recently changed it, but the old rules are a little easier to explain, so I'm going with that). The NFC teams and AFC teams are split into brackets; top record in each conference is top seed and then it's structured so basically high seed plays low seed. There is a playoff bye for the top seeds and some stuff like that, but that's the gist of it. When it's all said and done, the team who progresses through the NFC playoff and the team who progresses through the AFC playoff meet in the title game, and that's the super bowl. Anyways, that's the basic explanation, and I'm wondering how much we'll borrow from that....


SO, that out of the way, I suspect Dumbledore is on the right track - the end goal won't just be a 12 or 15-16 or even 20 team league or whatever, but rather I think their goal would ultimately be to encompass all of the major clubs/leagues in Europe under their umbrella. Basically the new UEFA, with a different structure and different leaders at the top. Is that better? I don't know either way, but - maybe I am being too naive here - I'm not sure the intention is to completely gut football as we know it with no replacement and leaving it only as haves and have-nots.

So I'm wondering if maybe the long term isn't to create a massive league covering much of Europe that would be structured and/or scheduled similar to many North American sports leagues, with conference/division schedules set each year as well as some "non-conference" matches on a rotating basis.

Like I said in my spoiler, each division in the NFL plays the other teams in its division twice a year, one home match and one away match. Kind of like we do in the Bundesliga right now. You play each team twice, once at home and once on the road. What if the plan is to make it so there is basically "ESL - England Division" and "ESL - Germany Division" and "ESL - Spain Division" and so on and so forth. Maybe it would be the case that you'd continue to play your "regular" schedule against your "division" opponents (which would more or less be how the league is now) but additionally add in some "non-conference" matches every season. So it might be that one year we'd play a Bundesliga schedule, but also have say a dozen matches against English teams, or something like that. Each match earns points like usual.

Then say towards the end of the season you count up the points and 1.) the team with the most points in their 'division' is that league's winner and 2.) The teams with the most points in the ESL total, say maybe like top 32 or something - progress to the end-of-season tournament and that's the de-facto UCL replacement.

Biggest difficulty here is figuring out how to set the number of matches properly... I guess if leagues did their typical schedule of 34-38 matches, plus maybe 12-16 "other division" matches, then 5-6 postseason tournament matches, that's roughly in-line with a full season as it stands (50ish matches and change). Of course you would have to find a way to balance the leagues or "divisions" to ensure the same number of matches as obviously a PL team with 38 matches would stand to earn more points than a BL team with 34 matches, as it is.

Anyways that's totally just spitballing, but I could see something like that being the ultimate end-goal when it's all said and done. Of course that doesn't really address so much of the other nuts and bolts issues like salary cap (and floor!), revenue distribution, all that jazz, but that's for another day.
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Re: European Football

Postby Valerio » Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:53 pm

Hardrade wrote:Super Cup? More like Super Coup d’Etat

The signatories have pledged to an ironclad 23 year contract, so this is pretty much a done deal. This is gonna be huge - with projected revenue doubling that of UCL. I wonder how this will develop, can’t say I’ve been this much intrigued about football before

they're talking about broadcasters now.
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