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[2018-05-19] Bayern Munich vs Eintracht Frankfurt

Discussions on the German Cup matches.
 

What is your prediction for this match?

Poll ended at Sat May 19, 2018 7:00 pm

Bayern Munich will win inside 90 minutes
5
100%
Bayern Munich will win after extra time
0
No votes
Bayern Munich will win on penalties
0
No votes
Eintracht Frankfurt will win on penalties
0
No votes
Eintracht Frankfurt will win after extra time
0
No votes
Eintracht Frankfurt will win inside 90 minutes
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 5

Re: [2018-05-19] Bayern Munich vs Eintracht Frankfurt

Postby MUTU » Tue May 22, 2018 9:46 am

Bayernbazi wrote:
MUTU wrote:
Dumbledore7 wrote:As long as referees have the final say, VAR won't fix anything. Referees are humans who have subjective opinions and can be bought.

That's not entirely correct. Referees do have the final say, so they can still be bribed and/or have weird opinions, true. However, the task has become much more difficult for them because they can no longer use their excuse of not having been able to see it properly. They have much more explaining to do, with VAR. Without VAR, Zwayer wouldn't have been trending this much on Twitter. What before could be brushed off as a simple mistake is suddenly looking deliberate and intentional. I'd say incidents like this are rather the exception than the norm, with VAR.


Here is another interesting point made by Gagelmann to Sky which I saw on Sunday but if I'm translating correctly is worth a thought.
He is critical of the selection which was shown to Zwayer. I think he is saying that from what we could see on the Tv's he was shown the last part of the action in slow mo, repeatedly but there was no showing of the larger span of the incident in real time which sometimes puts things in better persepctive. So it also depends on what is fed to the ref from the VAR studio.....selective information
I stand to be corrected if I am translating incorrectly.

DFB Cup: Gagelmann on Zwayers problem with video evidence GER

It doesn't matter because Zwayer still stands by his decision. If he used this as an excuse it may be worth looking into. Looks like Gagelmann is just trying to defend referees.
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Re: [2018-05-19] Bayern Munich vs Eintracht Frankfurt

Postby Dumbledore7 » Tue May 22, 2018 10:15 am

Please. More scrutiny for refs? Since when? Have we seen a high-profile referee heavily punished / completely fired from the job for making the wrong decision? I've seen short suspensions, but I'm expecting fines, lawsuits. Is anything going to happen to Felix Zwayer other than being spoken about in forums (wait, don't tell me that's what you guys meant by "scrutiny")? WIll Felix Zwayer be better at refereeing after this? How about Kassai? Do you think he won't get away with just "I stand by my decision" if we had VAR that match?

VAR may make it harder to cheat for now, but the refs will still find a way. Did you notice after goal line technology, there have been more decisions to disallow goal for other reasons? My favourite is "obstruction of view".
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Re: [2018-05-19] Bayern Munich vs Eintracht Frankfurt

Postby MUTU » Tue May 22, 2018 11:06 am

Dumbledore7 wrote:Please. More scrutiny for refs? Since when? Have we seen a high-profile referee heavily punished / completely fired from the job for making the wrong decision? I've seen short suspensions, but I'm expecting fines, lawsuits. Is anything going to happen to Felix Zwayer other than being spoken about in forums (wait, don't tell me that's what you guys meant by "scrutiny")? WIll Felix Zwayer be better at refereeing after this? How about Kassai? Do you think he won't get away with just "I stand by my decision" if we had VAR that match?

VAR may make it harder to cheat for now, but the refs will still find a way. Did you notice after goal line technology, there have been more decisions to disallow goal for other reasons? My favourite is "obstruction of view".

Mate, your answer is at https://www.wahretabelle.de/statistik/w ... lehistorie

The DFB table, under VAR, has never been as close to the Wahretabelle since its inception in 1995.
Exceptions will still exist, but repercussions are larger now.
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Re: [2018-05-19] Bayern Munich vs Eintracht Frankfurt

Postby MaCk0y » Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:50 am

Now ramsej. This is a disgrace. Not France's penalty. Still can't believe he did not give the penalty. That literal kick to the achilles tendon must have hurt.

At 8:36min.



At 8:48 we can see the referee watching the replay. Why the hell is the replay being shown that fast instead of in slow mo? I hoped they showed him a slow mo replay because if that is not the case, I wouldn't blame the referee for not seeing that.
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Re: [2018-05-19] Bayern Munich vs Eintracht Frankfurt

Postby MUTU » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:01 pm

MaCk0y wrote:At 8:48 we can see the referee watching the replay. Why the hell is the replay being shown that fast instead of in slow mo? I hoped they showed him a slow mo replay because if that is not the case, I wouldn't blame the referee for not seeing that.

They didn't, this was discussed a lot in German media. IIRC they also showed him some stills, but never the slow-motion replay.
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Re: [2018-05-19] Bayern Munich vs Eintracht Frankfurt

Postby MaCk0y » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:12 pm

MUTU wrote:
MaCk0y wrote:At 8:48 we can see the referee watching the replay. Why the hell is the replay being shown that fast instead of in slow mo? I hoped they showed him a slow mo replay because if that is not the case, I wouldn't blame the referee for not seeing that.

They didn't, this was discussed a lot in German media. IIRC they also showed him some stills, but never the slow-motion replay.


Seriously?!? :shock: I don't blame the referee then. I just don't understand. What was the reasoning? Doesn't make sense. Why are they making it difficult for the referee? It's defeating the purpose of VAR. #-o
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Re: [2018-05-19] Bayern Munich vs Eintracht Frankfurt

Postby MUTU » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:16 pm

MaCk0y wrote:
MUTU wrote:
MaCk0y wrote:At 8:48 we can see the referee watching the replay. Why the hell is the replay being shown that fast instead of in slow mo? I hoped they showed him a slow mo replay because if that is not the case, I wouldn't blame the referee for not seeing that.

They didn't, this was discussed a lot in German media. IIRC they also showed him some stills, but never the slow-motion replay.


Seriously?!? :shock: I don't blame the referee then. I just don't understand. What was the reasoning? Doesn't make sense. Why are they making it difficult for the referee? It's defeating the purpose of VAR. #-o

Would you really like me to answer you with what I think was the reasoning?
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Re: [2018-05-19] Bayern Munich vs Eintracht Frankfurt

Postby ramsej84 » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:30 pm

This is the first time I am seeing the contact...
In fact the EF looks to be also in pain after the contact...
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Re: [2018-05-19] Bayern Munich vs Eintracht Frankfurt

Postby MaCk0y » Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:09 pm

Ok I found
this [source]
.

Zwayer initially saw the scene in slow motion, but it stopped at the moment of the foul. Then the scene slowly moved back and forth around the instant that Boateng hits Martinez, and then it played the foul again in short segments as Zwayer was already moving to return to the pitch. In short: the referee did not see even the same replay as everyone watching on television.


Not for me, because I could not see any contact in the images that in my view could have caused Martinez to fall. The blow and effect did not correspond for me. In the images, I did not see any contact that convinced me to change my original perception and decision. Even after two days I stand by this decision.


Wow! I didn't know that for a foul to be awarded, it has to involve the player to fall. Martinez did go down but for Zwayer he shouldn't have fallen because that kick by Boateng would not have made a player to fall. What? :lol: So a player can continuously kick an opponent but if he doesn't go down, it's not a foul. :roll: And players fall down all the time and the referees including Zwayer award fouls like these all time even when it wasn't enough for the player to fall. And then we wonder why players dive continuously if fouls are awarded only when players fall to the ground. I hope someone gets the point I am trying to make. :)

Back to blaming Zwayer. :P I know this is all for nothing but needs to be seriously discussed because this referee is not OK and contradicts himself when he awards fouls like this one. It's not about this match which cannot be changed but I don't want this referee or other referees with this same shameful and idiotic reasoning affecting future matches.
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Re: [2018-05-19] Bayern Munich vs Eintracht Frankfurt

Postby MUTU » Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:17 pm

What needs to happen, now that VAR is available, is that if the referee makes an error despite VAR, as has happened in this case, the match should be replayed. They need to make it impossible for a team to win due to a referee mistake, because VAR alone is not enough.
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Re: [2018-05-19] Bayern Munich vs Eintracht Frankfurt

Postby Dumbledore7 » Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:36 pm

MUTU wrote:What needs to happen, now that VAR is available, is that if the referee makes an error despite VAR, as has happened in this case, the match should be replayed. They need to make it impossible for a team to win due to a referee mistake, because VAR alone is not enough.

Except penalties / fouls are inherently subjective, whether we like that or not. We need a rule change, not a system change.

If this was an offside or a goal-line issue I agree 100%. But the rules put the final decision on fouls on referees without any quantifiable reference (e,g, last night's penalty - beyond this forum, even pundits are arguing this).
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Re: [2018-05-19] Bayern Munich vs Eintracht Frankfurt

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:33 pm

MUTU wrote:What needs to happen, now that VAR is available, is that if the referee makes an error despite VAR, as has happened in this case, the match should be replayed. They need to make it impossible for a team to win due to a referee mistake, because VAR alone is not enough.


This is a bit extreme as some decisions are ambiguous. However I think it should change from the referee having all the power to a majority vote, possibly with the referee having a bigger say.
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Re: [2018-05-19] Bayern Munich vs Eintracht Frankfurt

Postby MUTU » Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:19 pm

FCBayernMunchen wrote:
MUTU wrote:What needs to happen, now that VAR is available, is that if the referee makes an error despite VAR, as has happened in this case, the match should be replayed. They need to make it impossible for a team to win due to a referee mistake, because VAR alone is not enough.


This is a bit extreme as some decisions are ambiguous. However I think it should change from the referee having all the power to a majority vote, possibly with the referee having a bigger say.

I'm not talking about the ambiguous ones, I'm talking about this decision in the DFB Pokal final. There were procedures (VAR) in place to avoid mistakes like this and they failed, so the match should be replayed IMO. They used to do replays on horrendous decisions (including one in a Bayern match*). If it was the other way round I would like the replay too... would rather risk losing than winning unfairly.

* this was when Helmer was awarded a goal that never crossed the line in 1994. Bayern had won 2-1 but DFB ordered a replay which Bayern won 5-0. [source]
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Re: [2018-05-19] Bayern Munich vs Eintracht Frankfurt

Postby MaCk0y » Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:05 pm

Yes. This case was not subjective or ambiguous. I mean Boateng said:

I obviously hit him; you can see it. After that the ref has to decide. I honestly thought he’d award a penalty. Today we were lucky that he didn’t award one. I thought, he has to blow his whistle.
:lol:

But it wasn't enough for Martinez to merit falling to the ground. That's how fouls are judged.

I don't think replaying matches is the answer. Do we want more matches and more fixture congestion? For me Zwayer should be sacked for issuing that ridiculous and baffling statement about how he judges fouls. Not fit to referee.
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Re: [2018-05-19] Bayern Munich vs Eintracht Frankfurt

Postby MUTU » Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:56 am

MaCk0y wrote:For me Zwayer should be sacked for issuing that ridiculous and baffling statement about how he judges fouls. Not fit to referee.

Yes, but in the real world he gets to be on the VAR team for England vs Croatia. That's how corrupt this sport is.
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