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[2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

Discussions on the UEFA Champions League matches.
 

What is your prediction for this match?

Poll ended at Tue May 12, 2015 7:45 pm

Bayern Munich will win
18
51%
It will end in a draw
2
6%
FC Barcelona will win
15
43%
 
Total votes : 35

Re: [2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

Postby ramsej84 » Thu May 14, 2015 1:35 pm

Juve will do it ... mark my words... Barca will be in hell not in Berlin
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Re: [2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

Postby sws » Thu May 14, 2015 1:37 pm

endrity wrote:
Aequitas1987 wrote:Its easy to be an armchair tactician without going into many details and then blaming the coach. Barcelona has been the possession gods for the last decade, we recently usurped that title from them. When going against Barcelona, everyone knows, especially Pep that when they don't have the ball they are practically shaky all over the pitch.

Then the question arises how do we beat them at their own possession game? Intense pressing in their half and in the middle of the field with constant turnovers and cutting off the supply to their attacking trio. Forcing Barcelona to go for long Lobs/Throughpasses which if our defensive unit works properly beats them by winning the headers or playing them offside.

Then you look at the resulting tactics; the 'sucidal' high line according to some of you peeps is what was absolutely necessary to execute these tactics to perfection, provided that our pressing was as intense as the last half of the tie. We didn't do that level of pressing in the first half and we played poor offisde traps due to Benatia/Boateng/Rafinha/Bernat having lack of chemistry. Trust me you throw either Martinez (if fully fit) or Alaba along with Benatia and Boateng and the offisde trap would have worked flawlessly.

And for all you people who think we should have played differently, what is your grand alternative tactically? Jupp's Bayern? Look at the players he had to his disposal compared to Pep. We didn't have the width he had with Robbery. Jupp played a contained pressing game, where he lulled Barcelona into a certain area and then aggressively pressed as a unit to win the ball and go for the counter. Do you see any fast players outside of Muller for us to counter with? You want to counter with Muller, Schweinsteiger, Gotze? Not going to happen. Secondly, giving possession to this Barcelona team and allowing their front three to link up is just asking to be slaughtered. All three individually are giant threats and the more time you give them on the ball the more dangerous they get, stopping all three is not easy at all.

Guardiola got the tactics almost right; maybe Martinez should have started in the 3 man defense. If most of the team were fitter (Thiago, Lahm, Schweinsteiger, Lewandowski, Alonso, Benatia) then our pressing game could have been better and we would have won this tie similar to Jupp's Bayern. Lack of chemistry, injuries and lack of fitness for the high intensity pressing game are to blame.


Where the hell does this idea come from that in order to beat Barca you take away the ball from them? Who ever did that? You beat Barca by parking a f'ing bus in front of them and trying to hit them on the counter. It's how everyone has done it, including teams that had a lot less talent than what we had available for these two games but made up for it in defensive discpline.

Not even Wenger on a bad night's sleep would think to make up for its shortcomings against Barca by going all out against them and trying to win posession. In fact we did win posession, but we got absolutely slaughtered.

In fact I am more than willing to bet that Juve will do a good job of containing them by doing exactly the same.


Well when everyone else succeeded against them Barca didn't have a trio of MSN. Watch the second leg: whenever they weren't attacking they looked uncomfortable. It'd be a stupid decision to just park the bus against them in this form and hope for the best. They're not like Bale who need tons of space in front of them to feel comfortable. Or like Dortmund who can't do shit with possession when teams sit back. They, like Bayern, would love it if teams would just sit back and let them do their thing.

Similarly, I don't think Bayern are comfortable with sitting back. It was safe against Dortmund because, even teams like Freiburg could beat them by parking the bus since they couldn't do anything with possession. Even then we were a little lucky.

I think the biggest mistake was going full throttle and losing composure after conceding. Whenever we concede, the following 10-15 minutes are pure pain to watch. That and the lack of subs in midfield and the Muller sub were the biggest mistakes, and not playing possession.
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Re: [2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

Postby MUTU » Thu May 14, 2015 1:56 pm

MSN makes Messi so much better because defence isn't concerned almost completely with Messi anymore. When Heynckes and Loew successfully neutralized Messi (admittedly, he still had a good chance in the WC final), he didn't have Neymar and Suarez as teammates. Look at the WC final again. Messi didn't do much, but the effort Loew put meant that Higuain and Palacio had great scoring chances because they were being left unmarked at times. Neymar and Suarez are much better players, and when you leave them unmarked, the end result is those two goals we saw in the 2nd leg. Pep had to make do with a second-string lineup for the most part. I suspect that had everyone been fit, Alaba would have started in Bernat's place, Badstuber in Benatia's place, Martinez would have played as a CD in a 3-man backline and Lahm would probably have been at rightback instead of Rafinha. I'd say only Boateng would have kept his place, and he'd have been the RCD and not the one marking Messi in that 1st leg.
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Re: [2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

Postby harry-muc » Thu May 14, 2015 2:05 pm

Bayernbazi wrote:
harry-muc wrote:im proud, proud of the team and proud of the most part of the fans in the stadium. can you imagine something like that at madrid? if you want a coach to go, because of just winning the league...then bayern is not the place for you. theres much more to being a fan than the biggest wins and the most titles. its the defeats, that merges the fan with the club. i read in the pep thread one comment about "passing" next season because peps bayern isnt the bayern it used to be (successwise?)... thats a shame. some people should learn to identify themselves with the club as a whole and not just the victories.


Hi harry-muc, you're always welcome with your comments, where you at the AA yesterday ?
I am sorry that any objective discussion has to end with being either labelled PROPEP or PEPRAUS.
Yesterday I was absolutely proud of the players and the fans staying behind the team all the way no matter what and that's how it should be.
I know how it feels, I was in Munich for the 2012 final and although the result was a big disappointment I still lived an unforgettable experience and left Munich with a stronger heart that we will get there. I cannot imagine how it is possible to stay off for a season
However I cannot say I am proud reading everywhere about Pep's super adjectives for Messi and that no one can stop him. One asks if the Head Coach really believed as much as the players and genuine supporters that we could have made the miracle possible. This is not about the lack of success but about hurt pride making Bayern look like some low team and only just started to play football when he took over.


i had no luck with the barca tickets, but i had the "pleasure" to watch the cup match against dortmund live in the stadium.
about the pep discussion: yeah, hes not perfect ( lahm is a right back) and yeah, some comments about messi and barca were not necessary ( but his wish for barca winning the final is completely natural...he has barca in his heart and thats ok), but so what? thats no reason to get rid of him. do you want to know who my favorite bayern coach in the last 30 years was? ...the mister, the great trap. 8)
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Re: [2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

Postby PunkCapitalist » Thu May 14, 2015 2:08 pm

Aequitas1987 wrote:Its easy to be an armchair tactician without going into many details and then blaming the coach. Barcelona has been the possession gods for the last decade, we recently usurped that title from them. When going against Barcelona, everyone knows, especially Pep that when they don't have the ball they are practically shaky all over the pitch.

Then the question arises how do we beat them at their own possession game? Intense pressing in their half and in the middle of the field with constant turnovers and cutting off the supply to their attacking trio. Forcing Barcelona to go for long Lobs/Throughpasses which if our defensive unit works properly beats them by winning the headers or playing them offside.

Then you look at the resulting tactics; the 'sucidal' high line according to some of you peeps is what was absolutely necessary to execute these tactics to perfection, provided that our pressing was as intense as the last half of the tie. We didn't do that level of pressing in the first half and we played poor offisde traps due to Benatia/Boateng/Rafinha/Bernat having lack of chemistry. Trust me you throw either Martinez (if fully fit) or Alaba along with Benatia and Boateng and the offisde trap would have worked flawlessly.

And for all you people who think we should have played differently, what is your grand alternative tactically? Jupp's Bayern? Look at the players he had to his disposal compared to Pep. We didn't have the width he had with Robbery. Jupp played a contained pressing game, where he lulled Barcelona into a certain area and then aggressively pressed as a unit to win the ball and go for the counter. Do you see any fast players outside of Muller for us to counter with? You want to counter with Muller, Schweinsteiger, Gotze? Not going to happen. Secondly, giving possession to this Barcelona team and allowing their front three to link up is just asking to be slaughtered. All three individually are giant threats and the more time you give them on the ball the more dangerous they get, stopping all three is not easy at all.

Guardiola got the tactics almost right; maybe Martinez should have started in the 3 man defense. If most of the team were fitter (Thiago, Lahm, Schweinsteiger, Lewandowski, Alonso, Benatia) then our pressing game could have been better and we would have won this tie similar to Jupp's Bayern. Lack of chemistry, injuries and lack of fitness for the high intensity pressing game are to blame.

Can't we like... Pin this post so every hater sees it at the top of the thread?

Only thing i have to add is that we could have used different tactics (and maybe even win that way) but it would have required us to practice them for at least half season. By the time we had to face Barca, we had already spent the whole season playing one way and couldn't just switch to a completely different system overnight...
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Re: [2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

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Re: [2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

Postby Jorge » Thu May 14, 2015 2:19 pm

PunkCapitalist wrote:
Aequitas1987 wrote:Its easy to be an armchair tactician without going into many details and then blaming the coach. Barcelona has been the possession gods for the last decade, we recently usurped that title from them. When going against Barcelona, everyone knows, especially Pep that when they don't have the ball they are practically shaky all over the pitch.

Then the question arises how do we beat them at their own possession game? Intense pressing in their half and in the middle of the field with constant turnovers and cutting off the supply to their attacking trio. Forcing Barcelona to go for long Lobs/Throughpasses which if our defensive unit works properly beats them by winning the headers or playing them offside.

Then you look at the resulting tactics; the 'sucidal' high line according to some of you peeps is what was absolutely necessary to execute these tactics to perfection, provided that our pressing was as intense as the last half of the tie. We didn't do that level of pressing in the first half and we played poor offisde traps due to Benatia/Boateng/Rafinha/Bernat having lack of chemistry. Trust me you throw either Martinez (if fully fit) or Alaba along with Benatia and Boateng and the offisde trap would have worked flawlessly.

And for all you people who think we should have played differently, what is your grand alternative tactically? Jupp's Bayern? Look at the players he had to his disposal compared to Pep. We didn't have the width he had with Robbery. Jupp played a contained pressing game, where he lulled Barcelona into a certain area and then aggressively pressed as a unit to win the ball and go for the counter. Do you see any fast players outside of Muller for us to counter with? You want to counter with Muller, Schweinsteiger, Gotze? Not going to happen. Secondly, giving possession to this Barcelona team and allowing their front three to link up is just asking to be slaughtered. All three individually are giant threats and the more time you give them on the ball the more dangerous they get, stopping all three is not easy at all.

Guardiola got the tactics almost right; maybe Martinez should have started in the 3 man defense. If most of the team were fitter (Thiago, Lahm, Schweinsteiger, Lewandowski, Alonso, Benatia) then our pressing game could have been better and we would have won this tie similar to Jupp's Bayern. Lack of chemistry, injuries and lack of fitness for the high intensity pressing game are to blame.

Can't we like... Pin this post so every hater sees it at the top of the thread?

Only thing i have to add is that we could have used different tactics (and maybe even win that way) but it would have required us to practice them for at least half season. By the time we had to face Barca, we had already spent the whole season playing one way and couldn't just switch to a completely different system overnight...


So now explain to me what happened against Real Madrid last year, and against Porto in Portugal, and against almost every Bundesliga Team that ranks 2 to 5 in the chart. The last time I checked they did not have MSN in their line-up. Love your optimism though.
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Re: [2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

Postby ramsej84 » Thu May 14, 2015 2:33 pm

Zealots are so present here... the coach does every thing right, the board as well ... yes sir, yes sir, yes sir
If one criticize he is a hater! ppl like the above makes those who criticize more angry and nervous thus looking like haters in order to show their feelings...
How can you not see the stubbornness in the coach's head ?
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Re: [2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

Postby Jorge » Thu May 14, 2015 2:40 pm

MUTU wrote:MSN makes Messi so much better because defence isn't concerned almost completely with Messi anymore. When Heynckes and Loew successfully neutralized Messi (admittedly, he still had a good chance in the WC final), he didn't have Neymar and Suarez as teammates. Look at the WC final again. Messi didn't do much, but the effort Loew put meant that Higuain and Palacio had great scoring chances because they were being left unmarked at times. Neymar and Suarez are much better players, and when you leave them unmarked, the end result is those two goals we saw in the 2nd leg. Pep had to make do with a second-string lineup for the most part. I suspect that had everyone been fit, Alaba would have started in Bernat's place, Badstuber in Benatia's place, Martinez would have played as a CD in a 3-man backline and Lahm would probably have been at rightback instead of Rafinha. I'd say only Boateng would have kept his place, and he'd have been the RCD and not the one marking Messi in that 1st leg.

After two years I doubt Pep would have done 50% of what you explain, personally I would be less skeptical on Pep's stubbornness if I had reasons to believe that he was going to make those changes. The fact is that a good coach is able to plan, adapt and effectively use what he has; you call it " a second-string lineup" and I disagree; if we have 4 or 5 world class players on the line up but they play way below their level because of their poor shape the coach bears responsibility on that.
When Real Madrid trashed us 5:0 on aggregate last season we had both Robben and Ribery (and Alaba) in the line up and they did not have MSN, part of the damage that they inflicted to us came in a different way but was the result of playing the same way, and all the failure on inflicting damage to them from us is the result of playing exactly the same way we did this time.

Pep's Bayern looks more than vulnerable against Big Teams in Big matches: it looks comical at times. Pep himself looks like a hysterical teenager in a Justin Bieber concert with all the Messi thing every time anyone puts a microphone in front of him.

If you tell me that Bayern is going to keep Pep for the next 10 years to change the club inside out and we have to sacrifice the present, maybe I will be able to understand how Bayern is willing to keep a failing coach because I doubt that Guardiola will win big with this group of players.
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Re: [2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

Postby PunkCapitalist » Thu May 14, 2015 2:51 pm

Jorge wrote:
PunkCapitalist wrote:
Aequitas1987 wrote:Its easy to be an armchair tactician without going into many details and then blaming the coach. Barcelona has been the possession gods for the last decade, we recently usurped that title from them. When going against Barcelona, everyone knows, especially Pep that when they don't have the ball they are practically shaky all over the pitch.

Then the question arises how do we beat them at their own possession game? Intense pressing in their half and in the middle of the field with constant turnovers and cutting off the supply to their attacking trio. Forcing Barcelona to go for long Lobs/Throughpasses which if our defensive unit works properly beats them by winning the headers or playing them offside.

Then you look at the resulting tactics; the 'sucidal' high line according to some of you peeps is what was absolutely necessary to execute these tactics to perfection, provided that our pressing was as intense as the last half of the tie. We didn't do that level of pressing in the first half and we played poor offisde traps due to Benatia/Boateng/Rafinha/Bernat having lack of chemistry. Trust me you throw either Martinez (if fully fit) or Alaba along with Benatia and Boateng and the offisde trap would have worked flawlessly.

And for all you people who think we should have played differently, what is your grand alternative tactically? Jupp's Bayern? Look at the players he had to his disposal compared to Pep. We didn't have the width he had with Robbery. Jupp played a contained pressing game, where he lulled Barcelona into a certain area and then aggressively pressed as a unit to win the ball and go for the counter. Do you see any fast players outside of Muller for us to counter with? You want to counter with Muller, Schweinsteiger, Gotze? Not going to happen. Secondly, giving possession to this Barcelona team and allowing their front three to link up is just asking to be slaughtered. All three individually are giant threats and the more time you give them on the ball the more dangerous they get, stopping all three is not easy at all.

Guardiola got the tactics almost right; maybe Martinez should have started in the 3 man defense. If most of the team were fitter (Thiago, Lahm, Schweinsteiger, Lewandowski, Alonso, Benatia) then our pressing game could have been better and we would have won this tie similar to Jupp's Bayern. Lack of chemistry, injuries and lack of fitness for the high intensity pressing game are to blame.

Can't we like... Pin this post so every hater sees it at the top of the thread?

Only thing i have to add is that we could have used different tactics (and maybe even win that way) but it would have required us to practice them for at least half season. By the time we had to face Barca, we had already spent the whole season playing one way and couldn't just switch to a completely different system overnight...


So now explain to me what happened against Real Madrid last year, and against Porto in Portugal, and against almost every Bundesliga Team that ranks 2 to 5 in the chart. The last time I checked they did not have MSN in their line-up. Love your optimism though.

I'm not saying Pep has been or done perfectly. He certainly messed up against Madrid last year, he said so himself. Regardless of the rest of the results, we did win the Bundesliga this season didn't we? What I'm saying is not that he is perfect infallible or whatever. Just saying that we had a horrendous streak of bad luck. I just think that Pep should be given a last chance at least.
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Re: [2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

Postby RAJBAYERN » Thu May 14, 2015 2:54 pm

I was reading many of your posts, some of you defending Pep tactics, other in disagree with him, and for me both of you are correct. In my case I am in neutral zone, because it is very simple: Guardiola didn't find a Plan B.

He tried to impose our style, but it didn't work in Camp Nou.

Bayern failed in having a Plan B and this blame should be share with Pep and players, because I remember when Pep decide to park the bus against Dortmund in the second half of the bundesliga match, Muller and Lewandowski alone cant have the enough speed to counter a well positioning defensive line, so the dependency of Robbery in both (Pep tactics and Players performance) make them to share the blame.
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Re: [2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

Postby sch0ll7 » Thu May 14, 2015 3:05 pm

Jorge wrote:If you tell me that Bayern is going to keep Pep for the next 10 years to change the club inside out and we have to sacrifice the present, maybe I will be able to understand how Bayern is willing to keep a failing coach because I doubt that Guardiola will win big with this group of players.


Why do you say we are sacrificing the present? We got knocked out in the semis and won the BL while unluckly got out in DFB Pokal semis. That is by no standards a bad season. No club in the world can call that a bad season. And we won the double previous season.
Borussia Dortmund fans can say they had a bad season. If I were to rate this season I would give it 4 stars [out of five]. and that is by no standards a bad one...considering we had the biggest injury problems in our history.

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Re: [2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

Postby sws » Thu May 14, 2015 3:11 pm

PunkCapitalist wrote:
Jorge wrote:
PunkCapitalist wrote:Can't we like... Pin this post so every hater sees it at the top of the thread?

Only thing i have to add is that we could have used different tactics (and maybe even win that way) but it would have required us to practice them for at least half season. By the time we had to face Barca, we had already spent the whole season playing one way and couldn't just switch to a completely different system overnight...


So now explain to me what happened against Real Madrid last year, and against Porto in Portugal, and against almost every Bundesliga Team that ranks 2 to 5 in the chart. The last time I checked they did not have MSN in their line-up. Love your optimism though.


I'm not saying Pep has been or done perfectly. He certainly messed up against Madrid last year, he said so himself. Regardless of the rest of the results, we did win the Bundesliga this season didn't we? What I'm saying is not that he is perfect infallible or whatever. Just saying that we had a horrendous streak of bad luck. I just think that Pep should be given a last chance at least.


No one has said Pep has been perfect. I don't think that a lot of people are looking at the big picture here. If not Pep, who? If Lahm at RB solves all problems where were our trophies in 2012? It's not like we didn't get embarrassed 5-3 then too.

Without any comparable replacement, what's the point in replacing him? Especially in the cusp, or even middle of a rebuilding. Look at clubs that continually rotate managers. What good has it done Hamburg or Schalke? What if we had sacked Jupp after 2012? Even Real Madrid might sack Ancelotti after a trophyless season, one comparable to ours in a lot of ways and I think they'd be dumb as **** to do that.
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Re: [2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

Postby pyrasur » Thu May 14, 2015 3:19 pm

endrity wrote:Where the hell does this idea come from that in order to beat Barca you take away the ball from them? Who ever did that? You beat Barca by parking a f'ing bus in front of them and trying to hit them on the counter. It's how everyone has done it, including teams that had a lot less talent than what we had available for these two games but made up for it in defensive discpline.


If only every team tried to park the bus against Barca. Oh wait...
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Re: [2015-05-12] Bayern Munich vs FC Barcelona

Postby sch0ll7 » Thu May 14, 2015 3:20 pm

We need to be realistic about this defeat against Barca.

Before Robben got injured I was somehow confident we will go to Berlin...but after I found out he was out for the rest of the season and Ribery and Alaba wont be coming back...and Lewandowski is doubtful...I realized that our chances of getting past in-form Barca are slim.

We could use any tactics in the world...or even bring Jupp back just for these 2 games and we would still probably fail to knock them out 9 times out of 10. There were just too much players out...and those that played were either just coming back from injury or out of form.

Sometimes you need to admit that one team is better at the moment and everything clicks for them while nothing goes right for you..and just carry on and prepare for next season.

Real Madrid was best in-form team 2 months ago...and they get knocked out by Juventus [who are good btw]. Only important player that was injured is Modrić and Benzema for 1st leg. And they somehow lost their touch.

It just proves that if you want to win the CL everything needs to go your way as every little detail is important.
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