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2018/19 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

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Re: 2018/19 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

Postby aterford » Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:55 pm

YlonenXabi wrote:I've always disliked VAR, but now I do it even more. With VAR it's easier to deliberately rob any team.


Whenever any team scores a goal VAR can just go back 30 seconds and try to see if there is any minimal thing that can cause it to be disallowed. Yesterday not even Courtois or Real players protested before VAR revised the goal

If they don't want to disallow the goal they can just ignore it and move on.


Another example is Asensio's goal. Just before he scored you have Vinicius pushing and running over an Ajax player. VAR could have easily disallowed the goal because of that foul, but they decided to conveniently ignore it.


Yep, and TBH we should have known better.
VAR allows for the appearance of objectivity and impartiality but in reality it's a subjective measure too. The referee simply doesn't have to consult video review if he doesn't want to. And in general the standard for changing a decision via VAR has often been described as "clear and obvious error" - which is of course also a subjective measure. Was it a "clear and obvious error" that allowed Ajax to score? I'm not sure it's so clear. Was it "clear and obvious" that De Jong was fouled in the buildup to Madrid's second goal (I think it was De Jong....)? I don't know, but it probably merited a closer look, no?

In general, when it comes to close decisions, most referees will tend to lean towards the bigger team, on average. That's not to say smaller teams never get calls or that every referee makes decisions to favor big clubs in every big club-small club match, but I think that, on average, in any given 50-50 or "judgment" call, odds are that the big team will likely benefit more often than the small team. That's just the way it is.
And when it comes to the Champions League: we must remember that it's a huge money generator. Would UEFA really institute a new system like VAR if they felt it didn't benefit their bottom line? I seriously doubt it. When you have so much money in play, I think it's natural to want to have some failsafe measures, and it may very well be that VAR checks the box in that regard. In some ways, I think the system now just allows an additional measure to protect the big teams.

Of course perhaps I'm being too cynical and a bit too conspiratorial. We should acknowledge that whenever such a new system is implemented there's going to be growing pains. But I think that it's in need of some serious overhauls (and i don't say that just in light of yesterday's result).

What Ramsej84 has suggested is similar to NFL challenges. While imperfect, I think their system has some interesting points that could serve to benefit the VAR system.
Such as:
1. When it comes to VAR, as described, rather than a "challenge" I think it would be that each manager is allowed to request VAR twice a game and in doing so the referee MUST review the preceding action.
2. In the NFL, it's written as such that the referee must see "incontrovertible" or "indisputable" video evidence to overturn a given call. This is similar to the "clear and obvious error" standard for VAR, but I think there needs to be a way to apply it more consistently or the standard must be more strict. Perhaps better said as "beyond a reasonable doubt." If a call is given one way, is taken to review, and it's not 100% clear that that call was wrong, the call stands. If a video review is called for/given and it's still a "judgment" call, you default to the original call on the field.
3. I'm also of the belief that if there's going to be VAR in place there shouldn't be as much freedom given to the referee, tbh. When the review staff says "hey, you might want to check on that," this should be an order rather than a request or suggestion. Occasionally it seems you see where the VAR crew suggests a review and the referee waves it off. I don't think that should be an option. When a review is called, it must be given, no way around it.
4. I also wonder if perhaps it would be better to have the review and decision conducted by an off-site group (although if you're one to claim corruption this might not help anything). But referees in all sports are generally (again, not all, just a generalization, but I think a relatively fair one) a bit hesitant to go against their original call and overturn something they initially called in a different way. I think that many would rather stick by their initial call (even if wrong) than admit they got it wrong and turn it over. With that in mind, i wonder if perhaps it would allow for more objectivity if they had all VAR instances initiated, reviewed, and completed/decided on by someone/a group other than the on-pitch referee.


Of course the trouble with all this is that it slows down and muddies up the game, so I'm just not sure. No VAR doesn't really help, a poorly-implemented VAR truthfully doesn't really help, and a VAR that's thoroughly and objectively implemented probably is helpful but I do think in some ways takes away from the 'spirit' of the game. No clear solution, really.
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Re: 2018/19 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

Postby Dumbledore7 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:56 pm

VAR is a brilliant piece of technology that has the potential to greatly improve the sport.

VAR doesn't solve any issues with refereeing.

Both are true.
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Re: 2018/19 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

Postby MUTU » Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:03 pm

ramsej84 wrote:Again ,... I think the VAR should go like this...

both coaches should ask the ref two times per match... that's all

If we ever go down this path, I hope that if the request was warranted (i.e. decision overturned), the coach does not lose his count of remaining 'times'.

That is, there should be no limit to the number of times the referee can be challenged and you get proven correct. The limit should be there to stop it from being abused as a means of time wasting (which it would be in injury time).
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Re: 2018/19 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

Postby MUTU » Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:19 pm

YlonenXabi wrote:I've always disliked VAR, but now I do it even more. With VAR it's easier to deliberately rob any team.


Whenever any team scores a goal VAR can just go back 30 seconds and try to see if there is any minimal thing that can cause it to be disallowed. Yesterday not even Courtois or Real players protested before VAR revised the goal

If they don't want to disallow the goal they can just ignore it and move on.


Another example is Asensio's goal. Just before he scored you have Vinicius pushing and running over an Ajax player. VAR could have easily disallowed the goal because of that foul, but they decided to conveniently ignore it.

You are looking at it too bitterly, IMO. I agree that some 50-50 decisions can go either way, especially when the rules stipulate that the ref must have done an obvious mistake. However, take Marcelo's handball against Bayern last season... there was no way VAR would not have given it. These are the decisions which boil my blood, and if we can get these out of the way football will be much more fair.

If you are still unconvinced, check out Wahretabelle year by year before VAR and after VAR. Nowadays, the league table is much closer to what is fair than to it used to be before VAR. Yes, the system is not perfect. Yes, Vidal would still have been sent off because VAR inexplicably does not intervene on a second-yellow situation. But those clear-cut penalties... they're likely going to get much fairer with VAR.
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Re: 2018/19 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

Postby ramsej84 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:29 pm

MUTU wrote:
ramsej84 wrote:Again ,... I think the VAR should go like this...

both coaches should ask the ref two times per match... that's all

If we ever go down this path, I hope that if the request was warranted (i.e. decision overturned), the coach does not lose his count of remaining 'times'.

That is, there should be no limit to the number of times the referee can be challenged and you get proven correct. The limit should be there to stop it from being abused as a means of time wasting (which it would be in injury time).


no just two ... if the ref decides against that would be it.
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Re: 2018/19 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

Postby MUTU » Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:35 pm

ramsej84 wrote:
MUTU wrote:
ramsej84 wrote:Again ,... I think the VAR should go like this...

both coaches should ask the ref two times per match... that's all

If we ever go down this path, I hope that if the request was warranted (i.e. decision overturned), the coach does not lose his count of remaining 'times'.

That is, there should be no limit to the number of times the referee can be challenged and you get proven correct. The limit should be there to stop it from being abused as a means of time wasting (which it would be in injury time).


no just two ... if the ref decides against that would be it.

So Lewandowski is fouled in the first 5 minutes. Challenge! Penalty given! Bayern miss it...
Vidal is sent off. Challenge! Red card revoked! Two minutes later he does another tackle and ends up being sent off anyway.
Casemiro keeps on fouling while on a yellow... sorry, out of challenges.
Marcelo does the handball inside the box... sorry, out of challenges.
Lewandowski is humped inside the box... sorry, still out of challenges.

If the referee is corrupt and trying to help a particular team, having 2 challenges is not enough. He'll just need to do 2 extra decisions which are wrong than he'd usually would have done. That simple.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather that the last 3 matches against Real Madrid were 100% fair even if they lasted 4 hours each because of the delays in reviewing all the controversial decisions.
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Re: 2018/19 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

Postby ramsej84 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:46 pm

I agree with you but I don't know what to say...
I mean, if we keep halting the game that much it will become as boring as hell.
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Re: 2018/19 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

Postby MUTU » Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:23 pm

ramsej84 wrote:I agree with you but I don't know what to say...
I mean, if we keep halting the game that much it will become as boring as hell.

Agreed, but I'd take boring over unfair. Also there's a 'halt' only because the referee needs to have the final say. If VAR was to have the final say, things would be much smoother because the lengthy process of the referee going over to the VAR screen, checking replays, making up his mind, going back onto the pitch and making the rectangular shape with his hands would be eliminated.

VAR would even be able to give out first yellows and show them on the stadium screen without the play being interrupted at all. When play breaks or the referee is close to the player, he'd inform him that VAR gave him a yellow for his earlier foul.
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Re: 2018/19 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

Postby Lukas » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:21 pm

The PL fanboys are against it because they think it will "spoil the most entertaining league in the world by stopping the action all the time"
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Re: 2018/19 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

Postby ramsej84 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:42 pm

Lukas wrote:The PL fanboys are against it because they think it will "spoil the most entertaining league in the world by stopping the action all the time"
Last night it must have been a tough one for you right?

Seeing Spurs eating BVB alive and Leeds claiming back the top spot
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Re: 2018/19 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

Postby Lukas » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:49 pm

ramsej84 wrote:
Lukas wrote:The PL fanboys are against it because they think it will "spoil the most entertaining league in the world by stopping the action all the time"
Last night it must have been a tough one for you right?

Seeing Spurs eating BVB alive and Leeds claiming back the top spot

Leeds are going up I've resigned myself to it since around October. The other one was difficult to take but it's about to get worse. PL 3 BL 0 at the end of this round
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Re: 2018/19 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

Postby ramsej84 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:21 pm

Lukas wrote:
ramsej84 wrote:
Lukas wrote:The PL fanboys are against it because they think it will "spoil the most entertaining league in the world by stopping the action all the time"
Last night it must have been a tough one for you right?

Seeing Spurs eating BVB alive and Leeds claiming back the top spot

Leeds are going up I've resigned myself to it since around October. The other one was difficult to take but it's about to get worse. PL 3 BL 0 at the end of this round
I don't give a xitt about the others... as they don't give a xitt about us...

Don't give up we are as good as they are
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Re: 2018/19 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

Postby Lukas » Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:40 am

Wouldn't say I give a shit about them either except when they play English clubs. Someone asked if I was happy with the result and if Bayern and Dortmund are big rivals. I should have said yes and yes but I said no, and that they (other german clubs) hate us more than we hate them.
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Re: 2018/19 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

Postby YlonenXabi » Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:10 pm

MUTU wrote:However, take Marcelo's handball against Bayern last season... there was no way VAR would not have given it.


Don't hold your breath... :mrgreen:

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Re: 2018/19 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

Postby Fénix » Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:31 pm

Believe it or not

FULL-TIME in Lyon 0:0


What should we say after Barcelona's draw in the 1st leg? The powerhouse of both Spanish and European football is struggling to beat a French side such as Lyon despite their dominance in shots, corners and possession?

It's also happening to them despite being in much better situation than we are in the last 2-3 seasons.
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