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2018/19 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

Discussions on the UEFA Champions League matches.
 

Re: 2018/19 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

Postby Borusse » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:44 am

Handling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact with the ball with the hand or arm.

The following must be considered:
1. the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand)
2. the distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball)
3. the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an offence
4. touching the ball with an object held in the hand (clothing, shinguard, etc.) is an offence
5. hitting the ball with a thrown object (boot, shinguard, etc.) is an offence


1. there was barely any movement towards the ball, surely not intentional one
2. if he really tried he could have hid his arms better, sure
3. position wasn't that unnatural
4. not important
5. not important

what that means it's not a clear offence. You can easily argue both ways. And if that's the case then the rules should be changed.

It just feels silly to me because when a handball like this decides a match it makes the game much less about skill and much more about luck. He got hit in the hand, whoops, I guess it's a penalty, United are through! Just stupid if a game of football comes down to a situation like this.

I would be for defenders being able to get away with getting hit in the hand and penalties being given only if there's A LOT of reason to believe the handball might have been intentional.
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Re: 2018/19 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

Postby America USA » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:46 am

MUTU wrote:I can understand the views of someone calling it a penalty, and wouldn't have protested if it was given by the referee as an initial decision. But for VAR to call upon the referee, thereby declaring his original decision as a "clear and obvious error", is not something I can ever agree with. I'd have done the same if the referee had awarded the penalty and VAR asked him to review, because it wouldn't have been "clear and obvious" either way.

@ Machiavellico - My answer would’ve been similar to MUTU’s.

Also, I’d like to make one vital correction in your interpretation: Kimpembe’s arms were not “spread out”. I’ve seen atleast thirty replays of the incident from many angles and you cannot say this with a straight face that Kimpembe’s arms were outstretched. He did a fantastic job of tucking them in as much as he could in that moment in time and was blinded. No way was that hand unnaturally outstretched and no way could be intentionally predict where the ball would strike him from behind, whether his hand or his butt.

Machiavellico wrote:What's the next thing? this gets allowed and then every defender is allowed to jump as much as he can, so that he can spread his arms wide to keep his balance and then we get what?

Keep the straw mans aside dude. If this was Boateng’s outstretched arm like in that Euro game against Italy then it would be unanimously given as a penalty. Or how Ramos blocked a PSG goal bound shot with his arm last season at the Bernabeu and got away with it.

No one is saying arguing to allow players run around defending like scarecrows or make snow angel designs in the air. Nobody’s arguing that so please let us not get into the hyperbole scenarios.

Borusse wrote:I would be for defenders being able to get away with getting hit in the hand and penalties being given only if there's A LOT of reason to believe the handball might have been intentional.

^ This too. Handball penalties must be given for clear and deliberate unnatural movements like Boateng in 2016.

Otherwise we’d have penalties given like candy in KO games and take the piss out of the contest.
Last edited by America USA on Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2018/19 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

Postby Machiavellico » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:49 am

Not spread out?
Spoiler: show
Image


Dude, the guy can touch his knee with his hand. He reaches all the way to the end of his thigh. How could you say that's not spread out? That's at least 30-40 cm to the right
Image

PE14
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Re: 2018/19 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

Postby America USA » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:59 am

A penalty is a game changing decision and is basically a free shot at goal. IMO it must only be awarded when the infringement is so egregious that it impedes the ability of the attacking team to score a certain goal.

That’s why I have been arguing about this shot being nowhere goal bound and yet a spot kick, a free shot at goal, was given for a disputed arm involvement.

Now people can pull out straw mans from the air and say if Hummels start playing basketball in his box under zero pressure should that be a penalty. Well if Hummels or any other defender loses his sanity to do so in the middle of the game then a penalty is the last thing I’d be worried about.

Back to this “handball” his arm is still tucked in a lot compared to the other blatant outstretched attempts that ought to be penalized. He’s in the air, blind sighted and still manages to keep his arm close to his body rather than letting it spread out like a traffic indicator. No way that’s intentional and as clarified above no way was that shot in anyway certainly on goal. Also, as MUTU previously elucidated, VAR must get involved only in cases of clear and obvious infringements. This call (and the one in the WC final) are farcical to the “clear and obvious” standard and fail to meet that burden.

Again I’d like to conclude by saying that you cannot run around defending with your hands outstretched like a scarecrow or pop them out in key moments because those instances warrant a punitive spot kick. Highly gray situations like this though certainly do not warrant the awarding of a free shot at goal.
Last edited by America USA on Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2018/19 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

Postby MUTU » Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:03 pm

Machiavellico wrote:
MUTU wrote:I can understand the views of someone calling it a penalty, and wouldn't have protested if it was given by the referee as an initial decision. But for VAR to call upon the referee, thereby declaring his original decision as a "clear and obvious error", is not something I can ever agree with. I'd have done the same if the referee had awarded the penalty and VAR asked him to review, because it wouldn't have been "clear and obvious" either way.


Don't you think that between a corner and a penalty there is a *clear and obvious* difference?

This is a complete misinterpretation of the rules.
We're talking about it being an error or not, not the difference in the effect of awarding the penalty vs not awarding it.
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Re: 2018/19 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

Postby America USA » Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:04 pm

I’d like to conclude my opinion on this matter by emphasizing that I suspect corruption here. The corner had been awarded and the players were getting ready hardly anyone appealed for a penalty. Then suddenly the referee received a message in his ear to “check” it again. UEFA had just lost Real from the competition and here was an opportunity to rescue one of the most popular clubs in the World in the dying minutes of the tie.

Situations like this are another reason why I want the away goals rule to die as soon as possible.
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Re: 2018/19 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

Postby MUTU » Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:04 pm

Borusse wrote:5. hitting the ball with a thrown object (boot, shinguard, etc.) is an offence

Just for fun, if hypothetically a player spits and the ball hits this spit mid-air inside the defending box, would that be awarded as a handball penalty by the book? :shock:
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Re: 2018/19 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

Postby America USA » Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:14 pm

MUTU wrote:
Borusse wrote:5. hitting the ball with a thrown object (boot, shinguard, etc.) is an offence

Just for fun, if hypothetically a player spits and the ball hits this spit mid-air inside the defending box, would that be awarded as a handball penalty by the book? :shock:

Considering that the momentum of the ball hit at pace would be at least a 100 times higher than that of saliva. I’m guessing that this hypothetical situation would only result in the spit having no blocking affect whatsoever on the football.
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Re: 2018/19 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

Postby MUTU » Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:15 pm

America USA wrote:
MUTU wrote:
Borusse wrote:5. hitting the ball with a thrown object (boot, shinguard, etc.) is an offence

Just for fun, if hypothetically a player spits and the ball hits this spit mid-air inside the defending box, would that be awarded as a handball penalty by the book? :shock:

Considering that the momentum of the ball hit at pace would be at least a 100 times higher than that of saliva. I’m guessing that this hypothetical situation would only result in the spit having no blocking affect whatsoever on the football.

Agreed, but the rule teeeeeechnically doesn't mention anything about blocking.
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Re: 2018/19 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

Postby America USA » Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:18 pm

Yeah but there won’t be any infringement because if the football is goal bound or a key pass to an attacker, the ball will still reach its target and the only thing that would happen is people laughing their asses off at the fool who spit in the first place.
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Re: 2018/19 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:23 pm

Imagine how long it would take VAR to determine whether the ball hit the spit or not. :lol:
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Re: 2018/19 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

Postby Fénix » Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:45 pm

MUTU wrote:
America USA wrote:If Ajax draw Manchester United next and eliminate them too that would be some fairytale level giant killing :mrgreen:

Except Man Utd are only giant in name.

Do you need anything else but a name and history? If you ask me - clearly no.

History is very clear, but also let's no lie ourselves, Ajax are also a great football club despite being the biggest victim of Bosman and EU in 1995 that actually destroyed them.
Last night on the Croatian TV, the TV host, commentators and journalists talked about Ajax and everything what they mentioned sounded like a far past, at least 5-6 times 90's were mentioned, their records, results, last time they played a K.O. stage, scored so many goals against Real Madrid, etc.

Last two nights were like a damn electric shock to me. They opened so many memories when I was a kid in the mid-90's, pictures from that life, the streets of my neighborhood, television matches, kids and young people wearing Ajax jerseys in my city, talking about Ajax, Cruyff, Van Basten, Pelé, Maradona, Ronaldo, Beckenbauer, Gerd Müller, Platini, Francescoli...

Ajax may be a small club in the 21st century, but for me is still one of the world's greatest clubs and more important - the club that absolutely shaped the whole football, something that Chelsea, City and PSG together won't make it in the next 100 years. Nothing can change that.
Many people talked about Bayern in the past decade like this, but we saw what happened to Bayern from 2007 till nowadays.


The same goes for Manchester United, the greatest club in England. That's what they are and what they proved last night despite being terrible for years, unrecognizable and far from glory days, but there's still something left inside of them - their attitude, character, ID, DNA, in one word - history. Sometimes this is all you need to be a winner. :wink:
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Re: 2018/19 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

Postby Fénix » Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:53 pm

ramsej84 wrote:
Achilles wrote:He is not a terrible coach but the crucifixion of the board for not signing him like he is THE COACH was paranoia from some members here.
Don't forget that he is dubbed as the German Pep

No worse trap than this one.

And that's the worst part about coaches - being a bad or horrible copy of someone than being yourself with your full name and surname.

Arsene Wenger tried to become Frank Rijkaard and Pepe Guardiola in the last decade, to transform his club from FC Arsenal to FC Barcelona and the only thing that he actually achieved - transformed Arsenal to TCFC Assanal, from no. 2 club in England into a no. 5 or no. 6 club, from motto "Arsene knows" to "Arsene pedophile" and "4th place is a trophy". :)
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Re: 2018/19 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

Postby MUTU » Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:18 pm

America USA wrote:Yeah but there won’t be any infringement because if the football is goal bound or a key pass to an attacker, the ball will still reach its target and the only thing that would happen is people laughing their asses off at the fool who spit in the first place.

I'd laugh at the guy who heads the spit-laden ball :)
What if the keeper catches the ball, or it goes out?
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Re: 2018/19 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

Postby MUTU » Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:20 pm

FCBayernMunchen wrote:Imagine how long it would take VAR to determine whether the ball hit the spit or not. :lol:

Rijkaard accepts your challenge, no VAR required.
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