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2017/18 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

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Re: 2017/18 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

Postby Valerio » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:32 pm

MUTU wrote:
Valerio wrote:Ismael's what? when?

https://youtu.be/bpNnh_Bj-3Q?t=2m (sorry couldn't find a better picture but the ball actually hits Ismael's knee first and then bounces onto his arm that's only there in front of his chest, unlike with Benatia)

https://youtu.be/imGy71tsgtQ?t=6s
or better view at https://youtu.be/uBv8EZUv-DE?t=56s

These were given as penalties.

If these are given as penalties, you can argue that those against Juventus *COULD* have been given.

ehm.... ok

Commenting on those 2 penalties given against Bayern
One is def a penalty. Even on the ground you can't handle the ball that way wanting or not.
The second one that should've hit the chest difficult to judge. Nowdays would be a NO. But I don't remember how the rules were back then.
As you know rules about handballs changed quite a bit over the time.

Don't forget that Milan was like nowdays Barcellona. UEFA favoured childrens
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Re: 2017/18 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

Postby MaCk0y » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:40 pm

So Mutu, did you enjoy discussing the match with your 3 Juve fans colleagues? How many times did you mention handball?
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Re: 2017/18 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

Postby MUTU » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:45 pm

Valerio wrote:One is def a penalty. Even on the ground you can't handle the ball that way wanting or not.

Handling what? He was on the floor, with the ball at his feet, he was kicked by the opponent in the side of his body (should've been a foul) and his natural reaction was to put his arms to the side of his body. At that time, the opponent pushed the ball against the player's arm that was also in front of his chest.

If an arm covering the chest is given as a penalty, then an arm outstretched outwards, more than one's hand, that's far more clearly a penalty in my opinion.
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Re: 2017/18 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

Postby MUTU » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:49 pm

MaCk0y wrote:So Mutu, did you enjoy discussing the match with your 3 Juve fans colleagues? How many times did you mention handball?

2 of them are out today so there's only one :) I told him because he is still saying that Lewandowski dived against Besiktas.
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Re: 2017/18 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

Postby aterford » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:57 pm

Generally speaking they weigh "natural position" pretty heavily when awarding a penalty for handball or not. Most of the time if the player in question's hand is in an "unnatural position" (which is usually taken to mean "away from the body") it's given as a foul....and I think you could probably say that of Chiellini.

Similarly I can't think of any excuse for why Barzagli was allowed to remain in the game. It's a clear red card, 100% intent to injure, has no place in the game.
And of course there was the phantom foul on Dybala in the dying minutes which effectively ended the game.
Yes, Juve should've got a penalty, but if there's VAR in the UCL, Spurs get two penalties at worst and probably are playing 11v10.
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Re: 2017/18 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

Postby MUTU » Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:01 pm

aterford wrote:Generally speaking they weigh "natural position" pretty heavily when awarding a penalty for handball or not. Most of the time if the player in question's hand is in an "unnatural position" (which is usually taken to mean "away from the body") it's given as a foul....and I think you could probably say that of Chiellini.

Similarly I can't think of any excuse for why Barzagli was allowed to remain in the game. It's a clear red card, 100% intent to injure, has no place in the game.
And of course there was the phantom foul on Dybala in the dying minutes which effectively ended the game.
Yes, Juve should've got a penalty, but if there's VAR in the UCL, Spurs get two penalties at worst and probably are playing 11v10.

To be fair the official laws of the game uses the word "deliberate", which leaves it up to the referee to decide.

As for the rest, I agree. A 100% fair referee would have improved things for Spurs.
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Re: 2017/18 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

Postby aterford » Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:15 pm

Right. But what I am saying is the most commonly held interpretation of "deliberate" (or "intent") is that it's considered to be deliberate or intentional if the arm/hand is in an "unnatural position" (which usually means away from the body)
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Re: 2017/18 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

Postby MUTU » Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:24 pm

aterford wrote:Right. But what I am saying is the most commonly held interpretation of "deliberate" (or "intent") is that it's considered to be deliberate or intentional if the arm/hand is in an "unnatural position" (which usually means away from the body)

For Juventus supporters: a sliding tackle with his feet that missed the ball and then he was going to fall over so he rested on his arm, but still fell with his arm outstretched.... then Kane purposely shot the ball against his arm to try and win a penalty
For neutral/Juventus-hater supporters: a sliding tackle with his arm.
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Re: 2017/18 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

Postby America USA » Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:24 pm

MUTU wrote:Look up Ismael's penalty conceded against AC Milan. Ball hits his knee and bounces to his arm that was crossed in front of his chest. The arm basically stopped the ball from hitting his chest. Penalty given. It was also in the Champions League. I'm just saying, because there are precedents for situations like that being given as penalties.


If that stuff in red did happen then it is a disgrace. As for precedents, bad precedents can and should be overruled. Imagine Ronaldo’s two offside goals against Bayern last year setting a precedent or Casemiro’s constant fouling and not getting sent off setting a precedent. If there has been a poor decision in the past, it must not be followed.

As for the referees in the Real and Juve games. Look I know you guys don’t like those two clubs (I too despise Madrid) but I don’t believe the referee’s had too much influence on the games and certainly not the result. In the first leg at Madrid you could argue that the referee was inconsistent and booked PSG players for stuff Madrid players were getting away with, but I don’t think there was too much of a scandal in the second legs.

Finally, if Juve’s handballs were given penalties then players might as well play with handcuffs or get their hands cut. If anything, it was a stonewall penalty on Costa but it was not given whereas the Juventus handballs were all soft. I am happy that a big game was NOT decided by a penalty given but rather both the teams scored from open play.
Last edited by America USA on Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2017/18 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

Postby MUTU » Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:28 pm

America USA wrote:
MUTU wrote:Look up Ismael's penalty conceded against AC Milan. Ball hits his knee and bounces to his arm that was crossed in front of his chest. The arm basically stopped the ball from hitting his chest. Penalty given. It was also in the Champions League. I'm just saying, because there are precedents for situations like that being given as penalties.


If that stuff in red did happen then it is a disgrace. As for precedents, bad precedents can and should be overruled. Imagine Ronaldo’s two offside goals against Bayern last year setting a precedent or Casemiro’s constant fouling and not getting sent off setting a precedent. If there has been a poor decision in the past, it must not be followed.

As for the referee’s in the Real and Juve games. Look I know you guys don’t like those two clubs (I too despise Madrid) but I don’t believe the referee’s had too much influence on the games and certainly not the result. In the first leg at Madrid you could argue that the referee was inconsistent and booked PSG players for stuff Madrid players were getting away with, but I don’t think there was too much of a scandal in the second legs.

Finally, if Juve’s handballs were given penalties then players might as well play with handcuffs or get their hands cut. If anything, it was a stonewall penalty on Costa but it was not given whereas the Juventus handballs were all soft. I am happy that a big game was NOT decided by a penalty given but rather both the teams scored from open play.

I understand what you mean, but most penalty situations are not black or white. Costa was a definite penalty, but the Tottenham calls were grey areas. This is not comparable to offside which is (practically) always black or white. What I'm saying is that a referee could have possibly given penalties in such situations, and it would be acceptable IMO.
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Re: 2017/18 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

Postby ramsej84 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:50 pm

MUTU wrote:
America USA wrote:
MUTU wrote:Look up Ismael's penalty conceded against AC Milan. Ball hits his knee and bounces to his arm that was crossed in front of his chest. The arm basically stopped the ball from hitting his chest. Penalty given. It was also in the Champions League. I'm just saying, because there are precedents for situations like that being given as penalties.


If that stuff in red did happen then it is a disgrace. As for precedents, bad precedents can and should be overruled. Imagine Ronaldo’s two offside goals against Bayern last year setting a precedent or Casemiro’s constant fouling and not getting sent off setting a precedent. If there has been a poor decision in the past, it must not be followed.

As for the referee’s in the Real and Juve games. Look I know you guys don’t like those two clubs (I too despise Madrid) but I don’t believe the referee’s had too much influence on the games and certainly not the result. In the first leg at Madrid you could argue that the referee was inconsistent and booked PSG players for stuff Madrid players were getting away with, but I don’t think there was too much of a scandal in the second legs.

Finally, if Juve’s handballs were given penalties then players might as well play with handcuffs or get their hands cut. If anything, it was a stonewall penalty on Costa but it was not given whereas the Juventus handballs were all soft. I am happy that a big game was NOT decided by a penalty given but rather both the teams scored from open play.

I understand what you mean, but most penalty situations are not black or white. Costa was a definite penalty, but the Tottenham calls were grey areas. This is not comparable to offside which is (practically) always black or white. What I'm saying is that a referee could have possibly given penalties in such situations, and it would be acceptable IMO.
Costa was not touched... at least when he decided to fall

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Re: 2017/18 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

Postby America USA » Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:55 pm

Two overhyped teams (PSG and Tottenham) have been eliminated, will Liverpool and Manchester City be next?
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Re: 2017/18 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

Postby Valerio » Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:36 pm

MUTU wrote:
aterford wrote:Right. But what I am saying is the most commonly held interpretation of "deliberate" (or "intent") is that it's considered to be deliberate or intentional if the arm/hand is in an "unnatural position" (which usually means away from the body)

For Juventus supporters: a sliding tackle with his feet that missed the ball and then he was going to fall over so he rested on his arm, but still fell with his arm outstretched.... then Kane purposely shot the ball against his arm to try and win a penalty
For neutral/Juventus-hater supporters: a sliding tackle with his arm.

But still dude whatever it is....
Did Chiellini with his arm throw the ball away from Kane? No. The ball slowed perfectly for Kane leaving Chiellini defeated on the ground.
No obstruction was made instead it helped Kane quite a bit and he wasted a gigantic chance by himself
How should that be a penalty?
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Re: 2017/18 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

Postby MUTU » Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:45 pm

Valerio wrote:
MUTU wrote:
aterford wrote:Right. But what I am saying is the most commonly held interpretation of "deliberate" (or "intent") is that it's considered to be deliberate or intentional if the arm/hand is in an "unnatural position" (which usually means away from the body)

For Juventus supporters: a sliding tackle with his feet that missed the ball and then he was going to fall over so he rested on his arm, but still fell with his arm outstretched.... then Kane purposely shot the ball against his arm to try and win a penalty
For neutral/Juventus-hater supporters: a sliding tackle with his arm.

But still dude whatever it is....
Did Chiellini with his arm throw the ball away from Kane? No. The ball slowed perfectly for Kane leaving Chiellini defeated on the ground.
No obstruction was made instead it helped Kane quite a bit and he wasted a gigantic chance by himself
How should that be a penalty?
He slowed down Kane by at least one second giving Buffon more time to compose himself. Since Kane failed to score, one can only wonder whether or not he could have scored without that funny move from Chiellini. If you remember he lost composure complaining about the handball before shooting and that may or may not have been a factor as to why he missed. Honestly I believe that VAR would have given a penalty there.
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Re: 2017/18 UEFA Champions League Discussion Thread

Postby #12 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:07 pm

MUTU wrote:
#12 wrote:I think two to three penalties is a bit much... And that one for Juve was also there - easily the most striking mistake in my book...

Well, there were a lot of half-situations for Tottenham that could have gone either way. There was a handball by Benatia in the 1st minute inside the box. There were 2 handballs by Chiellini inside the box. And there was a clear tug of the shirt in the box by Benatia.

The Juventus one was the most clear. But it was the only situation where the referee favoured Tottenham.

Then there was that situation where Barzagli jumped twice on Son's leg and then attempted to backheel kick him.

All in all, if I was a Tottenham fan I'd be furious at the referee.


Well, you were also furious at Kassai
Those "handballs" would’ve been joke penalties in my book... (only saw Benatia’s and the one where Chiellini was sliding...) You could very well make a case for that tug, but again, the Tottenham one was the clearest - certainly not enough for conspiracy theories...
The Barzagli situation is, however, not something we disagree on...
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