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[2021-10-30] Union Berlin vs Bayern Munich

Discussions on the German Bundesliga matches.
 

What is your prediction for this match?

Poll ended at Sat Oct 30, 2021 2:30 pm

1. FC Union Berlin will win
1
33%
It will end in a draw
0
No votes
Bayern Munich will win
2
67%
 
Total votes : 3

Re: [2021-10-30] Union Berlin vs Bayern Munich

Postby bastos80 » Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:42 pm

It's quite shocking how in the past few weeks it seemed that bar some individual errors by Upamecano, our defense stabilized itself.
Now we got handed 5 against Gladbach and it could've been more than 2 against Berlin inside of 4 days.
Today we saw some shades of Flick last season. Every pass that we played came back immediately, our midfield was completely overplayed with 1-2 moves and our defense had to go 1v1 with the opponent way too many times.
I would say against Benfica on Tuesday it'll be way more important for our momentum to keep a cleansheet again than to score 4+.
---------------Lewandowski
------------Sané - Müller - Gnabry
------------Goretzka - Kimmich
Davies - Hernández - Upamecano - Süle
--------------------Neuer
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Re: [2021-10-30] Union Berlin vs Bayern Munich

Postby Ottomeister87 » Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:48 pm

Yeah well, like i said, Union away is not a fun one to play, not that they are such a great or good team, but they fight, that can hurt even a club as Bayern. Last 5 minutes in the first and atleast the first 15/20 in the 2nd half were not that good in defense, headless chickens.

I think Nagelsmann actually being there and not having meetings over zoom/facetime, will change shit. The co trainer is way to soft in that approach on the sideline imo.

But yeah, defense has to get back to what it was doing before the Gladbach game and he just needs to rotate out Kimmich vs Benfica and Gore in next to Tolisso. And let Musiala play from the start instead of Muller.

And i have to say, even if Muller looks tired.. 3 assists and 1 goal. This man is somehow unbelievable.
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Re: [2021-10-30] Union Berlin vs Bayern Munich

Postby ramsej84 » Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:56 pm

MUTU wrote:
ramsej84 wrote:
ramsej84 wrote:Union Berlin are undefeated for the past 21 home games
Can't see tweet? Click here!

So one of you was wrong :)
The tweet should read after 22 games
U l-Kotra qamet f’daqqa – u għajtet: “Jien Maltija!
Miskin min ikasbarni, - miskin min jidħak bija!”
U l-Kotra għanniet f’daqqa – u semmgħet ma’ l-irjieħ
L-Innu ta’ Malta tagħna, – u l-leħen kien rebbieħ,
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Re: [2021-10-30] Union Berlin vs Bayern Munich

Postby MUTU » Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:11 pm

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Re: [2021-10-30] Union Berlin vs Bayern Munich

Postby YlonenXabi » Sun Oct 31, 2021 9:29 am

bastos80 wrote:It's quite shocking how in the past few weeks it seemed that bar some individual errors by Upamecano, our defense stabilized itself.
Now we got handed 5 against Gladbach and it could've been more than 2 against Berlin inside of 4 days.
Today we saw some shades of Flick last season. Every pass that we played came back immediately, our midfield was completely overplayed with 1-2 moves and our defense had to go 1v1 with the opponent way too many times.



I agree with that and like I said last season, it's not just a defenders problem. The reason why we've looked shaky recently is that their workload has increased.

Usually they would have to deal with a few dangerous situations during any game. But now our midfield is being bypassed with ease and we are vulnerable in transitions just like last year with Flick. It's no coincidence that Kimmich, Goretzka and Tolisso have been poor / looked exhausted in the last 2 games

So instead of having to deal with a few complicated situations they are constantly put under pressure. And there isn't a single defender in the world who would not struggle with so much space to cover. Of course Upamecano, Pavard, Lucas or Davies haven't been at their best recently either, but so-called rock solid defenders like Chiellini or Bonucci would look like the biggest clowns in our system




And that was one of the reasons why we struggled last season too. It's not that Alaba or Boateng got 100x worse within months. The problem is that our high pressing system wasn't working properly. And when that happens our dominant tactics become very vulnerable and our defense too exposed

Fortunately we shouldn't have the same fitness issues than last year because our players had enough time to recover this time. I expect us to slowly find our way out of this slump in form and get back to business




And for those who want to play with a lower block or a more defensive approach, it's not that simple.

At times we've tried to sit back and defend a little bit deeper, but our players are not used to that. In fact we usually dominate every game and concede few chances when we play our normal tactics and then we always concede many more goal chances when we let the opponent attack us.

So even if sitting back and defend a lead sounds logical for other teams, it's not that simple when even your defenders are offensive minded and not used to defend.
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Re: [2021-10-30] Union Berlin vs Bayern Munich

Postby #12 » Sun Oct 31, 2021 10:33 am

YlonenXabi wrote:
bastos80 wrote:It's quite shocking how in the past few weeks it seemed that bar some individual errors by Upamecano, our defense stabilized itself.
Now we got handed 5 against Gladbach and it could've been more than 2 against Berlin inside of 4 days.
Today we saw some shades of Flick last season. Every pass that we played came back immediately, our midfield was completely overplayed with 1-2 moves and our defense had to go 1v1 with the opponent way too many times.



I agree with that and like I said last season, it's not just a defenders problem. The reason why we've looked shaky recently is that their workload has increased.

Usually they would have to deal with a few dangerous situations during any game. But now our midfield is being bypassed with ease and we are vulnerable in transitions just like last year with Flick. It's no coincidence that Kimmich, Goretzka and Tolisso have been poor / looked exhausted in the last 2 games

So instead of having to deal with a few complicated situations they are constantly put under pressure. And there isn't a single defender in the world who would not struggle with so much space to cover. Of course Upamecano, Pavard, Lucas or Davies haven't been at their best recently either, but so-called rock solid defenders like Chiellini or Bonucci would look like the biggest clowns in our system




And that was one of the reasons why we struggled last season too. It's not that Alaba or Boateng got 100x worse within months. The problem is that our high pressing system wasn't working properly. And when that happens our dominant tactics become very vulnerable and our defense too exposed

Fortunately we shouldn't have the same fitness issues than last year because our players had enough time to recover this time. I expect us to slowly find our way out of this slump in form and get back to business




And for those who want to play with a lower block or a more defensive approach, it's not that simple.

At times we've tried to sit back and defend a little bit deeper, but our players are not used to that. In fact we usually dominate every game and concede few chances when we play our normal tactics and then we always concede many more goal chances when we let the opponent attack us.

So even if sitting back and defend a lead sounds logical for other teams, it's not that simple when even your defenders are offensive minded and not used to defend.
Not disagreeing with you, but the Gladbach goals, maybe bar the past one, were so very simple to defend and especially Upamecano looked MUCH worse than an amateur… I mean if a CB on my team would defend like he did in the 4-0, I‘d throw a hissy fit at him he‘d never recover from… He‘d get subbed immediately…
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Re: [2021-10-30] Union Berlin vs Bayern Munich

Postby Ed. » Sun Oct 31, 2021 11:12 am

bastos80 wrote:Every pass that we played came back immediately, our midfield was completely overplayed with 1-2 moves and our defense had to go 1v1 with the opponent way too many times.
I would say against Benfica on Tuesday it'll be way more important for our momentum to keep a cleansheet again than to score 4+.


Been saying this for the past month or so.
The defence seems very porous and a little bit of invention or creativity is enough to unlock it. On top of that, players are regularly making indvidual errors in every game that directly lead to chances.

This team is going to win the BL, but after 3 decades of following the club, I'm not really super interested in a tenth successive title.
The CL is a difficult tourney to win, need a bit of luck as well with the draw, but with the defence playing as we have now, we are going to leak a few in big games.
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Re: [2021-10-30] Union Berlin vs Bayern Munich

Postby YlonenXabi » Sun Oct 31, 2021 12:03 pm

Just take a look at Pool vs Brighton and City vs Crystal Palace yesterday





Does it look like they have a much better defense than us?
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Re: [2021-10-30] Union Berlin vs Bayern Munich

Postby Ed. » Sun Oct 31, 2021 1:12 pm

YlonenXabi wrote:Just take a look at Pool vs Brighton and City vs Crystal Palace yesterday
Does it look like they have a much better defense than us?


Well that's a strawman's argument against what I said which is an overall trend for the defence and not particular instances.

They had a tough examination in Benfica but came out without conceding and it was the best defensive performance so far. I can't recall errors, Benfica had to come up with something special and when they did Neuer was there.

For the clips you chose, the Liverpool one isn't poor defending. The first goal conceded is a fluke and for the second one, your highlights don't show the whole play. It was an incredible and risky pass from the GK, which is exactly what the Liverpool pressing wanted him to attempt, especially after he had conceded from one of the blunders of the season in trying to pass out earlier, only to be saved by a handball.
It came off and in 4 passes, starting from the GK, they scored. When that happens, you just have to applaud and admit it was too good.
Yes, the Man City goals were poor defending.

But these clubs defend well in general and you've picked sole instances where they've been poor.
Bayern on the other hand have average defensive displays and have instances where we are look rock solid. It should be the other way round.

All comps:

Chelsea: 6 goals in 15 games
Liverpool : 13 goals in 15 games
City: 13 goals in 15 games
Bayern: 15 goals in 15 games

That looks close, but we should really take the mid week Pokal fiasco into account as well where we conceded 5 in 1 game as an indication of the inconsistency.
Last edited by Ed. on Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: [2021-10-30] Union Berlin vs Bayern Munich

Postby YlonenXabi » Sun Oct 31, 2021 3:15 pm

Ed. wrote:For the clips you chose, the Liverpool one isn't poor defending. The first goal conceded is a fluke and for the second one, your highlights don't show the whole play. It was an incredible and risky pass from the GK, which is exactly what the Liverpool pressing wanted him to attempt, especially after he had conceded from one of the blunders of the season in trying to pass out earlier, only to be saved by a handball.
It came off and in 4 passes, starting from the GK, they scored. When that happens, you just have to applaud and admit it was too good.
Yes, the Man City goals were poor defending.


Those are just recent examples of big teams struggling defensively

And it's not only about the goals they conceded. The first goal chance for Brighton is a terrible positioning error by Konate that allowed March to dribble the ball completely free towards Allison.

And I didn't watch any of those two matches but I'm sure there were more instances ike that




Ed. wrote:Taking league and CL:

Chelsea: 6 goals in 15 games
Liverpool : 13 goals in 15 games
City: 13 goals in 15 games
Bayern: 15 goals in 15 games

That looks close, but we should really take the mid week Pokal fiasco into account as well where we conceded 5 in 1 game to get a better picture.
The EPL clubs haven't played the FA cup yet and really don't care much about the other cup they play.



Of course it's very likely that Bayern will concede more goals as we play a more offensive football. That's why I'm fine with Lucas and Upamecano because we're never gonna be solid in defense with our current tactics. But we will also score more goals than those teams that you mentioned.

It all comes down to press efficiently and reduce the times per game that an opponent can comfortably play a long ball at our back



League + CL (13 matches played for all 4 teams)

Chelsea: 31 goals scored, 4 goals conceded (+27)
Liverpool: 40 goals scored, 13 goals conceded (+27)
City: 31 goals scored, 12 goals conceded (+19)
Bayern: 50 goals scored, 10 goals conceded (+40)


And if you want to add Pokal and Supercup as well

Bayern: 65 goals scored, 16 goals conceded, 16 matches played (+49)


I'll give you that Premier League is stronger than Bundesliga hence our goal difference is bigger. But overall I think we are at least as good as those 3 teams

And if all 4 teams are at 100% with no injuries and everyone is at their best, we are superior IMO. Why? Because our players have proved to be the best in the last couple of years. It's not just a matter of 3 months of good form.
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