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[2020-05-17] Union Berlin vs Bayern Munich

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What is your prediction for this match?

Poll ended at Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:30 pm

1. FC Union Berlin will win
0
No votes
It will end in a draw
0
No votes
Bayern Munich will win
4
100%
 
Total votes : 4

Re: [2020-05-17] Union Berlin vs Bayern Munich

Postby ramsej84 » Mon May 18, 2020 2:58 pm

FCBayernMunchen wrote:
PunkCapitalist wrote:Ramsej es not even old though

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He is 36 in human years but 136 in ideology. :P
I think that I was born in the wrong cent.
In fact I always say that I wish that I was born in 1884
U l-Kotra qamet f’daqqa – u għajtet: “Jien Maltija!
Miskin min ikasbarni, - miskin min jidħak bija!”
U l-Kotra għanniet f’daqqa – u semmgħet ma’ l-irjieħ
L-Innu ta’ Malta tagħna, – u l-leħen kien rebbieħ,
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[2020-05-17] Union Berlin vs Bayern Munich

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Mon May 18, 2020 3:21 pm

ramsej84 wrote:
FCBayernMunchen wrote:
PunkCapitalist wrote:Ramsej es not even old though

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He is 36 in human years but 136 in ideology. :P
I think that I was born in the wrong cent.
In fact I always say that I wish that I was born in 1884
A lot of us tend to idealise the past. I was just having a conversation about it last night coincidentally. For me, the idealised period in history to my mind is between the start of the second millenium and the French/Industrial Revolutions. You know, the age of chivalry, Arthurian myths, castles, belief in magic and witchcraft, Dante, Chaucer, Shakespeare, the Italian Renaissance and the splendour of Louis XIV’s reign.

But idealisation is just that. These same things would more than likely have gotten me killed, either in battle, in a duel, executed, or simply starved. The same is true for any other time period. We only wish we were born there because of the elements we enjoy in stories of the time but they were all very very very unpleasant times to live in compared to today.
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Re: [2020-05-17] Union Berlin vs Bayern Munich

Postby aterford » Mon May 18, 2020 3:34 pm

IsiahRashad wrote:
longeleven wrote:
Fénix wrote:You are missing the point here from Kimmich's point of view; he played out of his position for 4 years under Guardiola, Heynckes and Kovač and has always wanted to play there where he plays this season and in 2016/2017.
That's why he has started to play last and this season once again in midfield under Kovač, now Flick and this remains permanent until Bayern doesn't lose 6-7 players due to injury and has to cover holes in the last line until they recover.
The same thing would be right now if he were played as a striker or a winger, he would have said the same thing about learning and helping him as a player.
Lewandowski said the same for Jürgen Klopp when he was used behind Barrios as no. 10 in some matches, didn't quite like that idea and decision, but the Pole actually learned a lot from that position to be what he is - a striker, not AM. :D


For Kimmich, I don't think he lacks of vision or something like that for playing midfield. He is clever and smart enough to play there, his passing is dope as well.
The only thing he lacks for the defensive midfield is muscle, he is a bit weak compare to another midfield within the team, not name any top tier around the world.
He is aggressive enough to fight or throwing a dirty punch if needed but he needs more muscle and power for it.
I remember the times he tried to stop Poulsen by tackling and pulling shirt but RB player just keep running. Kimmich was lying there watching opponent face to face with CBs, that was so pathetic. :cry:


I was about to question his defensive mindset, especially talking about tackling. For a defensive midfielder, he's putting just 1,6 tackles per game, which is one of his biggest weaknesses - compare this to the:
3,3 tackles per game for Casemiro,
2,1 for Fabinho,
2,4 for Jorginho,
2,5 for Thomas,
3 for Declan Rice,
2,5 for Brozovic and
4 per game for Camavinga.

Flick is playing with the defenders being in 45,4 meters (he's 1'st in that category from all of the coaches in the top 5 leagues) away from the goalkeeper, so it's super important to have a DM who's stopping the attacks via fouls or tackles, and he's not doing exactly a good job here. I don't want to put the interceptions numbers, because it's too much work for me at the moment, but I assure you that they are similar to these numbers.

The other thing that he's not good is the fast decision making - he has to stop the ball, look at his teammates, and then he's looking to pass the ball, which at all takes around 3 or 4 seconds. Now, I believe you remember Xabi Alonso and despite being in the last 2 years of his career, how great was his passing since day 1 (his problem was his lack of speed back then, which is pretty normal for a 33-year-old player) - he's just got the feeling about his teammates, and where are they on the pitch in every second of the game. As a person who played mainly as a DM/CDM back in the days, I can guarantee you that this is something that cannot be learned - you either got it or not. The problem is that often under pressure, he's making mistakes which are leading to dangerous situations in front of our goalie, and this is the last thing that you want from the player who is (or should be) your main motor of the midfield.

He's good at everything else, but he should work a lot if he wants to be one of the best in the world. :roll:


This raises an interesting point, but I do think we need to consider the big-picture context too. Ultimately the goal is to break up and limit the "fluidity" of the opponent's attacks and to limit chance creation. If that comes by way of your DM making a lot of tackles/interceptions, that is great, but if it happens as a result of those actions (or others) elsewhere on the pitch, is that worse? I'm not sure it is.

I haven't taken the time to look very in-depth at the numbers overall (maybe someday....plenty of free time!) so bear in mind this is just hypotheticals. But let's consider the following imaginary circumstance:
Team A allows 10 big chances per game and their DM gets 5 tackles and/or interceptions per game.
Team B allows 5 big chances per game and their DM gets 2 tackles and/or interceptions per game.
Which team is better off here? I suppose what I am getting at is this: it's not necessarily to say Kimmich is perfect at his job (I don't really mean it to be about Kimmich in particular at all, really), but rather to not get too focused on one (or two or three) statistics for a specific position when compared to the team (and team "objectives") as a whole. In other words, if your "objectives" are to limit chance creation and break up attacks and you are succeeding in that "objective" then it really does not matter which particular player or statistical measure represents the biggest sole contribution to it, if that makes sense. Would we be better off with a DM who logs more tackles or interceptions in a match? Maybe so, but it may well be that the team is structured as such that it wouldn't really make an appreciable difference if we had a DM who was getting 2.5 tackles/match, either. Hard to say.

I think a similar consideration too is not the individual number but rather what portion of a team's larger numbers those stats represent and whether or not that 'production' is being made up for elsewhere. Let's say that West Ham as a team average 10 tackles per game and 3 of them come from Rice, so 7 from other players (again that's a totally made-up number, just something nice and round for an example). And let's say Bayern also average 10 tackles per game, but only 1.5 of them come from Kimmich, meaning 8.5 from elsewhere. So long as that "production" is being accounted for elsewhere on the pitch (or even in the same "positional group"), does it matter a ton which individual player it comes from? Again I am not sure. We do often see Kimmich paired with Thiago, who averages something like 2.5 tackles and 2.5 interceptions per game alone, so it may well be that the "total production" is accounted for, just perhaps not by the position/player one might expect. And again, we might be better suited if Kimmich upped those numbers, but it's also just as possible IMO that Kimmich improving those numbers wouldn't necessarily lead to an appreciable on-pitch improvement for the team as a whole (and perhaps would cause a decline in other areas!).

So, like I said, that's all largely hypothetical, but I guess my point is not to say that there's no value in these stats (you know that's not my feeling!) but rather that when looking at these numbers for different players across different teams it's good to consider how they relate as a function of that team's approach and "goals" or "objectives" and - if they're doing 'enough' to meet those goals/objectives or if improving those specific numbers would improve their pursuit of said goals/objectives.

Food for thought, anyway. Hahaha.
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Re: [2020-05-17] Union Berlin vs Bayern Munich

Postby #12 » Mon May 18, 2020 6:53 pm

FCBayernMunchen wrote:
PunkCapitalist wrote:Ramsej es not even old though

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He is 36 in human years but 136 in ideology. :P
Exactly my point yes
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Re: [2020-05-17] Union Berlin vs Bayern Munich

Postby #12 » Mon May 18, 2020 6:53 pm

ramsej84 wrote:
FCBayernMunchen wrote:
PunkCapitalist wrote:Ramsej es not even old though

Sent from my Mi A3 using Tapatalk


He is 36 in human years but 136 in ideology. :P
I think that I was born in the wrong cent.
In fact I always say that I wish that I was born in 1884
Planned to rise to power in Germany?
Summer 2020: Hasan, show us your weakness!!
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Re: [2020-05-17] Union Berlin vs Bayern Munich

Postby MUTU » Mon May 18, 2020 7:59 pm

ramsej84 wrote:
FCBayernMunchen wrote:
PunkCapitalist wrote:Ramsej es not even old though

Sent from my Mi A3 using Tapatalk


He is 36 in human years but 136 in ideology. :P
I think that I was born in the wrong cent.
In fact I always say that I wish that I was born in 1884

So you'd have been at the right age for the Great War?
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Re: [2020-05-17] Union Berlin vs Bayern Munich

Postby ramsej84 » Mon May 18, 2020 10:37 pm

Malta was not participant
U l-Kotra qamet f’daqqa – u għajtet: “Jien Maltija!
Miskin min ikasbarni, - miskin min jidħak bija!”
U l-Kotra għanniet f’daqqa – u semmgħet ma’ l-irjieħ
L-Innu ta’ Malta tagħna, – u l-leħen kien rebbieħ,
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[2020-05-17] Union Berlin vs Bayern Munich

Postby #12 » Tue May 19, 2020 9:05 am

ramsej84 wrote:Malta was not participant
Surely that wouldn’t have kept a real man like yourself from volunteering to fight huh?!
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Re: [2020-05-17] Union Berlin vs Bayern Munich

Postby ramsej84 » Tue May 19, 2020 9:09 am

#12 wrote:
ramsej84 wrote:Malta was not participant
Surely that wouldn’t have kept a real man like yourself from volunteering to fight huh?!
What for? We fought the others' wars since ever...
U l-Kotra qamet f’daqqa – u għajtet: “Jien Maltija!
Miskin min ikasbarni, - miskin min jidħak bija!”
U l-Kotra għanniet f’daqqa – u semmgħet ma’ l-irjieħ
L-Innu ta’ Malta tagħna, – u l-leħen kien rebbieħ,
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Re: [2020-05-17] Union Berlin vs Bayern Munich

Postby #12 » Tue May 19, 2020 9:11 am

ramsej84 wrote:
#12 wrote:
ramsej84 wrote:Malta was not participant
Surely that wouldn’t have kept a real man like yourself from volunteering to fight huh?!
What for? We fought the others' wars since ever...
Well, at least you’re asking the right question...
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Re: [2020-05-17] Union Berlin vs Bayern Munich

Postby IsiahRashad » Tue May 19, 2020 1:57 pm

aterford wrote:This raises an interesting point, but I do think we need to consider the big-picture context too. Ultimately the goal is to break up and limit the "fluidity" of the opponent's attacks and to limit chance creation. If that comes by way of your DM making a lot of tackles/interceptions, that is great, but if it happens as a result of those actions (or others) elsewhere on the pitch, is that worse? I'm not sure it is.
............................................
Food for thought, anyway. Hahaha.


I don't have a problem with the "team view" approach for the game, as I think this is the right way to look to the collective sports. Yes, as a team they are doing a great job if we're still talking about the tackles and interceptions. But what will happen in 2 or 3 years' time, when the team will have new players?
Let's imagine that his new partners do not contribute as much to the defensive game as, say, Thiago or Corentin. He must start to break up the flow of the game with tackles, which, although not pleasing to the eye, are invaluable for the team. The DM has to put in a hard-working performance, which sadly goes unnoticed to a lot to the fans.

If you look at the last winners of the Champions League, there is always a DM with specific style of play, no matter the players around him. Even, I remember that since the sale of Patrick Viera, Arsenal have failed to win a major trophy.

- Fabinho - Liverpool 18/19;
- Casemiro - Real Madrid 15/16, 16/17, 17/18;
- Busquets - 14/15;
- Khedira - 13/14;
- Martinez - 12/13;
- John Obi Mikel - 11/12;

There is something similar between all of these players - They may not be the most exciting players to watch, but their hard-core approach is effective. That, along with the way they were in help of the defence, has made them indispensable. This definitely allowed the players around them not to think so much about the defensive part of the game, which leads to other pluses - easier transition in attack and higher pressure on the opposite team defenders, since there is no need from all other midfielders to run back in every possession.

You know, I just want from every player to perform and match perfectly with the stereotypes of his position. Because when every player does what needs to be done - the team is going to win in 9 of 10 games. As I said earlier, Kimmich needs to work a lot to be the DM matching these parameters. But, do I think that he has the qualities to be one of the best DM's mentioned above - no I don't. Bayern is always trying to find player that can play in 5 positions, while at the end of the day, 5 of 6 players end up being average in every position in which they "are perfect for". So this is the case with me for Kimmich. While he is decent and often good in the Bundesliga, against strong opponent midfield in the Champions League, I don't think he's the main anchor who we can trust to lead the team to glory.

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We can see Thiago is here for good, and this raises more questions for me instead of giving me answers. Sadly, I don't have time again to talk about everything which I want to, but there is something which I don't want to imagine playing against - a midfield trio of Casemiro, De Bruyne and Jorginho. :)
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Re: Callum Hudson-Odoi [Callum James Hudson-Odoi]

Postby Evan van Essen » Thu May 21, 2020 11:51 am

One thing to consider imo when talking about kimmich as a dm. Is that we play a double pivot with the defensive work spread amongst thiago and kimmich. So its hard to even compare that to players who play as a lone dm.

And about kimmich being to weak. He may not be the strongest but he has the agilty to quickly switch the person he is pressing. Which imo is the thing that javi is lacking most these days. If the ball is passed around in midfield javi isn't fast and agile enough to switch to pressing the player who just received the ball.

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