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[2020-02-29] Hoffenheim vs Bayern Munich

Discussions on the German Bundesliga matches.
 

What is your prediction for this match?

Poll ended at Sat Feb 29, 2020 3:30 pm

TSG 1899 Hoffenheim will win
0
No votes
It will end in a draw
0
No votes
Bayern Munich will win
1
100%
 
Total votes : 1

Re: [2020-02-29] Hoffenheim vs Bayern Munich

Postby MUTU » Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:13 pm

aaaaaa wrote:
MUTU wrote:
ProSolidarity wrote:Please don't assume I must be one of the protesters, simply because I've decided not to lash out against them like everyone without the insight has. I haven't had the time to go to a football game in years and, embarrassingly, felt the urge to sign up on here and shed light on the situation.

I'll be interested to see how opinion on the topic changes, if at all, in the weeks to come, as, again, I would expect intense reaction from all corners of Germany throughout the next few games. Who knows, maybe I'm wrong.

Unfortunately it's the wrong language and the wrong platform too. Cards on the table, I am in favour of anything that improves the quality of FC Bayern and German football in general, and I believe abolishing 50+1 is a step in that direction. I am however sympathetic to the backtracking of collective punishment issue. I understand DFB believe that the protest by BVB was too much. Truth be told, it wasn't very civilised.


you think abolishing 50+1 would improve the quality of Bayern... I dont buy that, personally I dont want anything to do with some oil dictators using club as a toy. We are doing just fine



These rich owners have propelled the English league into unparalleled financial successes. Failing to adopt to their model is what is mostly holding us back from keeping up.

Irrespective of whether or not you personally like or dislike 'oil dictators', it is a fact that club ownership has reaped benefits to English football.

Or are you simply comfortable winning the domestic titles year after year?
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Re: [2020-02-29] Hoffenheim vs Bayern Munich

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:17 pm

aaaaaa wrote:you think abolishing 50+1 would improve the quality of Bayern... I dont buy that, personally I dont want anything to do with some oil dictators using club as a toy. We are doing just fine


What I believe, and I think based on discussions we’ve had before on the forum and elsewhere MUTU agrees, is that no Bundesliga team can seriously hope to do well in Europe CONSISTENTLY except for Bayern. Heck, we’ve reached a point where no team can even seriously challenge Bayern in Germany, which didn’t used to be the case. We’re winning leagues even in bad seasons.

This can only be improved by narrowing the money gap. 50+1 will help do that, and as a result of more competition, Bayern improves. We saw this whenever we were seriously challenged. When Dortmund won back to back titles we won the the Champions League. When Wolfsburg won the title we bought Robben, Olic, and Gomez. When we failed to qualify for the CL we brought in Ribery, Klose, Toni, Ze Roberto and more.

Do I want a rich owner to take over Bayern? I don’t, and perhaps this is where MUTU and I diverge. But then, we don’t particularly need to, because we can compete financially and sporting-wise with the very best already. It would help us make big money transfers though, admittedly. As far as other Bundesliga teams go, however, it is not realistic to expect that financial gap to narrow significantly while 50+1 is in place.
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Re: [2020-02-29] Hoffenheim vs Bayern Munich

Postby ramsej84 » Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:28 pm

MUTU wrote:
aaaaaa wrote:
MUTU wrote:[quote="ProSolidarity"]Please don't assume I must be one of the protesters, simply because I've decided not to lash out against them like everyone without the insight has. I haven't had the time to go to a football game in years and, embarrassingly, felt the urge to sign up on here and shed light on the situation.

I'll be interested to see how opinion on the topic changes, if at all, in the weeks to come, as, again, I would expect intense reaction from all corners of Germany throughout the next few games. Who knows, maybe I'm wrong.

Unfortunately it's the wrong language and the wrong platform too. Cards on the table, I am in favour of anything that improves the quality of FC Bayern and German football in general, and I believe abolishing 50+1 is a step in that direction. I am however sympathetic to the backtracking of collective punishment issue. I understand DFB believe that the protest by BVB was too much. Truth be told, it wasn't very civilised.


you think abolishing 50+1 would improve the quality of Bayern... I dont buy that, personally I dont want anything to do with some oil dictators using club as a toy. We are doing just fine



These rich owners have propelled the English league into unparalleled financial successes. Failing to adopt to their model is what is mostly holding us back from keeping up.

Irrespective of whether or not you personally like or dislike 'oil dictators', it is a fact that club ownership has reaped benefits to English football.

Or are you simply comfortable winning the domestic titles year after year?[/quote]2010 inter
2011 / 2015 barca
2012 pass
2013 bayen
2014/ 2016/7/8 Real
2019 Liverpool how many Engl teams can you count?
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Re: [2020-02-29] Hoffenheim vs Bayern Munich

Postby Fénix » Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:36 pm

The whole thing is that we have had Uli Honeß and later Franz Beckenbauer and Karl-Heinz Rummenigge. Others never had anything like that, maybe 90's Leverkusen with Rainer Calmund.

Add to them coaches like Lattek, Hitzfeld and Heynckes who did their part of the job on the pitch, Van Gaal who brought elements of Dutch football here and that's it.

All of our problems are lying in the league. So it always has been and it will be as long as this football mentality and standard remains even though German football style is probably the most attractive in the whole Europe, but it is absolutely unfollowed by player and financial strength and quality.

If Bundesliga had in the last 6 years mear Bayern just 4 competitive clubs every single season for the title, growing in every single aspect, we would have been seeing a completely different football map of Europe, both in the CL and the EL.
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Re: [2020-02-29] Hoffenheim vs Bayern Munich

Postby MUTU » Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:38 pm

FCBayernMunchen wrote:
aaaaaa wrote:you think abolishing 50+1 would improve the quality of Bayern... I dont buy that, personally I dont want anything to do with some oil dictators using club as a toy. We are doing just fine


What I believe, and I think based on discussions we’ve had before on the forum and elsewhere MUTU agrees, is that no Bundesliga team can seriously hope to do well in Europe CONSISTENTLY except for Bayern. Heck, we’ve reached a point where no team can even seriously challenge Bayern in Germany, which didn’t used to be the case. We’re winning leagues even in bad seasons.

This can only be improved by narrowing the money gap. 50+1 will help do that, and as a result of more competition, Bayern improves. We saw this whenever we were seriously challenged. When Dortmund won back to back titles we won the the Champions League. When Wolfsburg won the title we bought Robben, Olic, and Gomez. When we failed to qualify for the CL we brought in Ribery, Klose, Toni, Ze Roberto and more.

Do I want a rich owner to take over Bayern? I don’t, and perhaps this is where MUTU and I diverge. But then, we don’t particularly need to, because we can compete financially and sporting-wise with the very best already. It would help us make big money transfers though, admittedly. As far as other Bundesliga teams go, however, it is not realistic to expect that financial gap to narrow significantly while 50+1 is in place.

Well said. And for the record I wouldn't want a rich owner at Bayern either.
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Re: [2020-02-29] Hoffenheim vs Bayern Munich

Postby MUTU » Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:42 pm

ramsej84 wrote:2010 inter
2011 / 2015 barca
2012 pass
2013 bayen
2014/ 2016/7/8 Real
2019 Liverpool how many Engl teams can you count?


Double the German ones. And Inter 2010 had a rich owner as well.

Besides your comparison is pointless. Are English clubs richer or not? Is it not the case that the richer you are the higher the chances of success? Yes, there are other factors too but the biggest of them all is money.
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Re: [2020-02-29] Hoffenheim vs Bayern Munich

Postby ramsej84 » Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:46 pm

MUTU wrote:
ramsej84 wrote:2010 inter
2011 / 2015 barca
2012 pass
2013 bayen
2014/ 2016/7/8 Real
2019 Liverpool how many Engl teams can you count?


Double the German ones. And Inter 2010 had a rich owner as well.

Besides your comparison is pointless. Are English clubs richer or not? Is it not the case that the richer you are the higher the chances of success? Yes, there are other factors too but the biggest of them all is money.
PSg are richer...
Man c are richer and won 0 European titles.
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Re: [2020-02-29] Hoffenheim vs Bayern Munich

Postby MUTU » Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:59 pm

ramsej84 wrote:
MUTU wrote:
ramsej84 wrote:2010 inter
2011 / 2015 barca
2012 pass
2013 bayen
2014/ 2016/7/8 Real
2019 Liverpool how many Engl teams can you count?


Double the German ones. And Inter 2010 had a rich owner as well.

Besides your comparison is pointless. Are English clubs richer or not? Is it not the case that the richer you are the higher the chances of success? Yes, there are other factors too but the biggest of them all is money.
PSg are richer...
Man c are richer and won 0 European titles.

You clearly didn't read what I said.
Also, are PSG not better than Birkirkara FC? Just because a team didn't win the CL doesn't mean cash didn't make them stronger. Chelsea got better thanks to Abramovich long before they beat us in the finale dahoam. Manchester City haven't yet won the CL but can you say they got worse since the Sheikh took them over? Same thing with PSG.

Seriously you don't think that money is not a major factor in a team's quality right?
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Re: [2020-02-29] Hoffenheim vs Bayern Munich

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Tue Mar 03, 2020 6:22 pm

A better thing to look at would be, since big money came into football, how many teams have won the CL without rich owners or spending way above their means (loans etc.)? Not sure about Liverpool but other than that I think we are seriously the only ones... and it’s not like we didn’t spend money anyway.
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Re: [2020-02-29] Hoffenheim vs Bayern Munich

Postby #12 » Tue Mar 03, 2020 6:24 pm

MUTU wrote:
ProSolidarity wrote:
aaaaaa wrote:OK, now its a bit more clear, Hopp really is scum

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XCG-6OVICA



Thanks, aaaaaa, for sharing this. Gab seems to be one of the first to have accurately depicted the situation in the English language. Long story short, this wasn't the first protest directed at Hopp. Moreover, Hopp was simply the proxy in an attempt to demonstrate solidarity with the organised fans of Dortmund, just as Mönchengladbach, Union Berlin and others have done. After the DFB announced not to punish entire clubs for the behaviour of certain individuals back in 2017 (i.e. if one person lights a flare, you try to punish the culprit and not the 5000 people standing around him, as is usually practiced on a daily basis in respectable Western democracies), they went ahead with banning all Dortmund fans from Hoffenheim games until 2022 after chants were made and banners shown against Hopp, who not only set up the microphones Gab talked about, but even installed a machine emitting high frequency noises to overtone those same supporters (Source: https://www.spiegel.de/sport/fussball/p ... 80548.html).

As such, a precedent was set and the inevitable response from all (not only Bayern!) organised fans, who would naturally be worried they would be affected next, would be to call out the DFB on their change in stance. Unfortunately, there is no going back now, as a further precedent has been set: considering these kinds of banners, admittedly usually slightly milder (but not always, try watching games in BL2 and 3. Liga) are displayed in virtually every German stadium, the questions arises whether the DFB will really follow through and cancel multiple matches, considering huge demonstrations of solidarity with the Bayern fan scene are expected in stadia throughout Germany in the weeks to come?

One wouldn't expect fans watching the match on TV, possibly from abroad, to understand the intricacies of the issue. All they see is a banner calling someone a "SoB", which really isn't a very nice thing to say, and a reaction from their own team, which they naturally would prefer to place their faith in rather than calling them out on a possible overreaction. However, the notion that the scenes this Saturday were any different than at any other game in the past and were particularly worthy of match cancellation or any attention at all really, is absurd and something pedelled mainly by the response from Bayern's staff. It is also worth noting that Bayern is sponsored by Hopp's SAP. If my financial security was in part dependent on keeping my sponsors happy, I'd team up with them too! In any case, it's really interesting to see where the line was drawn.

What is, however, a little disappointing is the response on here suggesting all of these guys should be kicked out. For decades, Bayern's management was embarrassed to talk about the club's past, including year-long neglection of Kurt Landauer. It needed the expressed support on the part of Charlotte Knobloch, of Germany's Central Council of Jews, for the club to understand and take up Schickeria on their quest to shed light on Landauer's massively positive influence on our club. Furthermore, in 2014 Schickeria was awarded by the DFB with the famous "Julius Hirsch Preis" for their continued work against racism. They create the choreograpgies you all enjoy seeing, not the club, whose management is usually kept in the dark on the contents of the choreographies after they once, stupidly and possibly for marketing reasons, announced the design prior to its showing. Suggesting all these fans, from the same rows as those holding up the banner, are idiots and enemies of football and backing that up with a meaningless tweet of condemnation is rather, shall we call it, simple.

Welcome to the forum and thanks for the insight. I think you are missing the point: we were all enjoying a game of football, crushing our opponents, and some fans decided to stand up against DFB in solidarity with fans of other clubs and spoiled a great match. If you guys want to protest, do that at the Marienplatz not when we're winning 6-0 please. And using the right wording.

Please understand that those who are in favour of abolishing 50+1 and support Hopp would find your actions rather selfish, and that's why you shouldn't impose your protest over others.

DFB are not selling their product at Marienplatz, they sell it in stadiums...
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Re: [2020-02-29] Hoffenheim vs Bayern Munich

Postby aaaaaa » Tue Mar 03, 2020 6:27 pm

MUTU wrote:
aaaaaa wrote:Unfortunately it's the wrong language and the wrong platform too. Cards on the table, I am in favour of anything that improves the quality of FC Bayern and German football in general, and I believe abolishing 50+1 is a step in that direction. I am however sympathetic to the backtracking of collective punishment issue. I understand DFB believe that the protest by BVB was too much. Truth be told, it wasn't very civilised.


you think abolishing 50+1 would improve the quality of Bayern... I dont buy that, personally I dont want anything to do with some oil dictators using club as a toy. We are doing just fine



These rich owners have propelled the English league into unparalleled financial successes. Failing to adopt to their model is what is mostly holding us back from keeping up.

Irrespective of whether or not you personally like or dislike 'oil dictators', it is a fact that club ownership has reaped benefits to English football.

Or are you simply comfortable winning the domestic titles year after year?[/quote]

has it, really ? They still suck as a national team.
We can compete with all the oil teams WITH 50+1 rule, we just destroyed one last week
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Re: [2020-02-29] Hoffenheim vs Bayern Munich

Postby #12 » Tue Mar 03, 2020 6:27 pm

MUTU wrote:
ProSolidarity wrote:Please don't assume I must be one of the protesters, simply because I've decided not to lash out against them like everyone without the insight has. I haven't had the time to go to a football game in years and, embarrassingly, felt the urge to sign up on here and shed light on the situation.

I'll be interested to see how opinion on the topic changes, if at all, in the weeks to come, as, again, I would expect intense reaction from all corners of Germany throughout the next few games. Who knows, maybe I'm wrong.

Unfortunately it's the wrong language and the wrong platform too. Cards on the table, I am in favour of anything that improves the quality of FC Bayern and German football in general, and I believe abolishing 50+1 is a step in that direction. I am however sympathetic to the backtracking of collective punishment issue. I understand DFB believe that the protest by BVB was too much. Truth be told, it wasn't very civilised.


It was... And much more so than earlier ones... They were on parole though so yes, they kinda had it coming... But you can see it's not just plain black or plain white...
The thing is: it’s NOW that the DFB decides to maybe abort matches - not when it was racism...
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Re: [2020-02-29] Hoffenheim vs Bayern Munich

Postby aaaaaa » Tue Mar 03, 2020 6:34 pm

FCBayernMunchen wrote:
aaaaaa wrote:you think abolishing 50+1 would improve the quality of Bayern... I dont buy that, personally I dont want anything to do with some oil dictators using club as a toy. We are doing just fine


What I believe, and I think based on discussions we’ve had before on the forum and elsewhere MUTU agrees, is that no Bundesliga team can seriously hope to do well in Europe CONSISTENTLY except for Bayern. Heck, we’ve reached a point where no team can even seriously challenge Bayern in Germany, which didn’t used to be the case. We’re winning leagues even in bad seasons.

This can only be improved by narrowing the money gap. 50+1 will help do that, and as a result of more competition, Bayern improves. We saw this whenever we were seriously challenged. When Dortmund won back to back titles we won the the Champions League. When Wolfsburg won the title we bought Robben, Olic, and Gomez. When we failed to qualify for the CL we brought in Ribery, Klose, Toni, Ze Roberto and more.

Do I want a rich owner to take over Bayern? I don’t, and perhaps this is where MUTU and I diverge. But then, we don’t particularly need to, because we can compete financially and sporting-wise with the very best already. It would help us make big money transfers though, admittedly. As far as other Bundesliga teams go, however, it is not realistic to expect that financial gap to narrow significantly while 50+1 is in place.


You think we would be getting cheap or free players from Bundesliga if other teams had rich owners ? Bayern would NOT improve, the league would be more competitive, thats it.
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Re: [2020-02-29] Hoffenheim vs Bayern Munich

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Tue Mar 03, 2020 6:41 pm

We haven’t gotten a good Bundesliga player in six years unless I’m forgetting someone obvious. Maybe we would be better off without the Rodes and Rudys.
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Re: [2020-02-29] Hoffenheim vs Bayern Munich

Postby #12 » Tue Mar 03, 2020 6:57 pm

FCBayernMunchen wrote:We haven’t gotten a good Bundesliga player in six years unless I’m forgetting someone obvious. Maybe we would be better off without the Rodes and Rudys.
Gnabry?
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