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[2017-12-13] Bayern Munich vs FC Köln

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What is your prediction for this match?

Poll ended at Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:30 pm

Bayern Munich will win
4
100%
It will end in a draw
0
No votes
1. FC Köln will win
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Total votes : 4

Re: [2017-12-13] Bayern Munich vs FC Köln

Postby Paphlagonian » Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:43 pm

I agree with MUTU on VAR situation. We had so many bad calls from referees in our history. Why would any FCB fan would like VAR to be removed is beyond me.
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Re: [2017-12-13] Bayern Munich vs FC Köln

Postby RedQueen » Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:45 pm

MUTU wrote:
RedQueen wrote:I think pretty much everyone in German football is in agreement that VAR can't go on like this.

Like what? I understand it's not perfect: but my opinion is that the imperfection comes from its non-regular use. We've seen loads of decisions overturned through VAR, decisions that would have been incorrect. Those wishing for VAR to be stopped don't want a fair match.

Like we employ it now. There's a great sense of frustration about the way VAR is used, and even among those who initially supported it there are voices who call for scrapping it now. I've written about the allegations against Krug who was accused of overturning VAR decisions in his role of a supervisor, and there's a general problem that nobody knows what's going on in that darkroom in Cologne. There are still no clear rules when VAR has to interfere and when he must not interfere, it's handled different in every game, totally arbitrary. We had situations when decisions were overturned up to three minutes later. And there are grave refereeing errors even with VAR. Right now, it's doubtful whether there isn't less injustice due to VAR but more.
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Re: [2017-12-13] Bayern Munich vs FC Köln

Postby MUTU » Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:23 pm

RedQueen wrote:
MUTU wrote:
RedQueen wrote:I think pretty much everyone in German football is in agreement that VAR can't go on like this.

Like what? I understand it's not perfect: but my opinion is that the imperfection comes from its non-regular use. We've seen loads of decisions overturned through VAR, decisions that would have been incorrect. Those wishing for VAR to be stopped don't want a fair match.

Like we employ it now. There's a great sense of frustration about the way VAR is used, and even among those who initially supported it there are voices who call for scrapping it now. I've written about the allegations against Krug who was accused of overturning VAR decisions in his role of a supervisor, and there's a general problem that nobody knows what's going on in that darkroom in Cologne. There are still no clear rules when VAR has to interfere and when he must not interfere, it's handled different in every game, totally arbitrary. We had situations when decisions were overturned up to three minutes later. And there are grave refereeing errors even with VAR. Right now, it's doubtful whether there isn't less injustice due to VAR but more.

Bullshit. I don't mean you but the whole situation :) Let's say there's a corrupt Krug arbitrarily deciding on whether or not to intervene, because he has some bet or grudge against a club. This would be the worst case scenario, so let's imagine it's the case.

Now let's say that during a matchday, 90 right decisions and 10 wrong decisions are done by referees but a corrupt Krug would only inform the referee in 5 cases. This would mean that referees end up giving right decisions in 95% of cases, rather than 90% of cases. The only way more injustice can exist with VAR is if there's an agenda specifically against a club (such as informing the ref when there is a penalty against Bayern but purposely not doing so when the penalty should be in favour of Bayern). If this is not the case, I'd rather have 95% right decisions than 90%, though I'd obviously prefer 100%. In any case, if it's not working out, it should be changed not abolished.
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Re: [2017-12-13] Bayern Munich vs FC Köln

Postby RedQueen » Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:30 pm

The injustice arises because there are no clear rules when VAR is to interfere, or if there are, the rules are not followed. For example, in the Leipzig game vs Mainz VAR interfered in a situation where the question was whether a freekick and a yellow card should be awarded or not. According to the rules announced by the DFB, this is NOT a situation when VAR should interfere.

Later on in the same game, there was a situation when a defender stepped on Timo Werner's foot in the box. This time, VAR didn't interfere; no penalty awarded.

It's injustice because in some situations VAR interferes when he shouldn't, and in others he doesn't interfere when he should. The result is that the chances a wrong decision is corrected are skewed, depending on whether VAR chooses to interfere or not, because the interference isn't governed by clear rules - or the VAR doesn't follow them.
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Re: [2017-12-13] Bayern Munich vs FC Köln

Postby MUTU » Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:36 pm

RedQueen wrote:The injustice arises because there are no clear rules when VAR is to interfere, or if there are, the rules are not followed. For example, in the Leipzig game vs Mainz VAR interfered in a situation where the question was whether a freekick and a yellow card should be awarded or not. According to the rules announced by the DFB, this is NOT a situation when VAR should interfere.

Later on in the same game, there was a situation when a defender stepped on Timo Werner's foot in the box. This time, VAR didn't interfere; no penalty awarded.

It's injustice because in some situations VAR interferes when he shouldn't, and in others he doesn't interfere when he should. The result is that the chances a wrong decision is corrected are skewed, depending on whether VAR chooses to interfere or not, because the interference isn't governed by clear rules - or the VAR doesn't follow them.

Seems like all that needs to happen is set ground rules. In my opinion, this should happen with each and every referee mistake. For example, in our match against Koeln, they clearly had a corner not awarded to them. IMO, VAR should have stepped in and overrode the ref. In order to continue with the flow, the referee should trust the VAR with non-critical situations such as this and not stay checking the replay but only do that in big situations.
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Re: [2017-12-13] Bayern Munich vs FC Köln

Postby RedQueen » Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:44 pm

The DFB has established the rules: Clear refereeing errors in situations involving penalties, goals, red cards and if the ref confuses two players. Sounds simple enough, but it still doesn't work - VARs interfering when they shouldn't aside, the first controversy arises when it comes to deciding what is a "clear refereeing error".

Then there is the issue with the red cards - what about 2nd yellow cards? Does VAR have to review the 2nd yellow - if not, how is a 2nd yellow different from a straight red? If yes, why only the 2nd yellow but not the first - if the first yellow was wrong, the player is unduly sent off, even if the 2nd yellow was correct.

Then we have players hounding the ref calling for a VAR review in every game, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't - again, in principle the rule is that it's the VAR who calls the ref, and not the other way round.

I could go on. We have endless discussions every matchday over about half a dozen VAR decisions, and people are sick of it.

I'm not calling for scrapping it, but like I said, there is a consent it can't go on like this.
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Re: [2017-12-13] Bayern Munich vs FC Köln

Postby MUTU » Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:54 pm

RedQueen wrote:The DFB has established the rules: Clear refereeing errors in situations involving penalties, goals, red cards and if the ref confuses two players. Sounds simple enough, but it still doesn't work - VARs interfering when they shouldn't aside, the first controversy arises when it comes to deciding what is a "clear refereeing error".

Then there is the issue with the red cards - what about 2nd yellow cards? Does VAR have to review the 2nd yellow - if not, how is a 2nd yellow different from a straight red? If yes, why only the 2nd yellow but not the first - if the first yellow was wrong, the player is unduly sent off, even if the 2nd yellow was correct.

Then we have players hounding the ref calling for a VAR review in every game, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't - again, in principle the rule is that it's the VAR who calls the ref, and not the other way round.

I could go on. We have endless discussions every matchday over about half a dozen VAR decisions, and people are sick of it.

I'm not calling for scrapping it, but like I said, there is a consent it can't go on like this.

Hence why I suggested that VAR is used for every wrong decision and, unless it's a big moment in the match, the ref should not review it but accept VAR's suggestion. The match would be fairer, the game would hardly be slowed down and the referee would have less fingers pointed at him (or Steinhaus).
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Re: [2017-12-13] Bayern Munich vs FC Köln

Postby ramsej84 » Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:56 pm

IMO the VAR should only be used to a maximum of three or two occasions by each team.
This can work like timeouts as they do in other sports. The coach will call on the 4th official and the latter informs the ref about the request and the ref will be obliged to check.
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Re: [2017-12-13] Bayern Munich vs FC Köln

Postby RedQueen » Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:59 pm

MUTU wrote:Hence why I suggested that VAR is used for every wrong decision and, unless it's a big moment in the match, the ref should not review it but accept VAR's suggestion. The match would be fairer, the game would hardly be slowed down and the referee would have less fingers pointed at him (or Steinhaus).

Well, they don't want that, they want the field ref to have the final say and not undermine his or her authority. Actually, there was an IFAB intermediate evaluation the other day coming to the conclusion that VAR is interfering too frequently, especially in Germany.

@ramsej: They don't want a challenge system, either.
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Re: [2017-12-13] Bayern Munich vs FC Köln

Postby MUTU » Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:18 pm

ramsej84 wrote:IMO the VAR should only be used to a maximum of three or two occasions by each team.
This can work like timeouts as they do in other sports. The coach will call on the 4th official and the latter informs the ref about the request and the ref will be obliged to check.

I see two problems in this.

1) A referee could make more than 2-3 mistakes in a match against a team (see Real Madrid vs FC Bayern once again)
2) Coaches would end up using them just to waste time near the end of a match when they're winning and are under pressure, kind of in the same way they do substitutions in injury time.
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Re: [2017-12-13] Bayern Munich vs FC Köln

Postby MUTU » Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:22 pm

RedQueen wrote:
MUTU wrote:Hence why I suggested that VAR is used for every wrong decision and, unless it's a big moment in the match, the ref should not review it but accept VAR's suggestion. The match would be fairer, the game would hardly be slowed down and the referee would have less fingers pointed at him (or Steinhaus).

Well, they don't want that, they want the field ref to have the final say and not undermine his or her authority. Actually, there was an IFAB intermediate evaluation the other day coming to the conclusion that VAR is interfering too frequently, especially in Germany.

@ramsej: They don't want a challenge system, either.

I don't understand the obsession with leaving football traditional and having an omnipotent referee. Isn't the whole point of the referee to carry out justice? Or is the aim of the referee to have a 'bully' on the field who gets to decide everything? Why is it so important for the referee to carry the full burden on his or her shoulders?
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Re: [2017-12-13] Bayern Munich vs FC Köln

Postby SilverX » Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:51 pm

MUTU wrote:
RedQueen wrote:
MUTU wrote:Hence why I suggested that VAR is used for every wrong decision and, unless it's a big moment in the match, the ref should not review it but accept VAR's suggestion. The match would be fairer, the game would hardly be slowed down and the referee would have less fingers pointed at him (or Steinhaus).

Well, they don't want that, they want the field ref to have the final say and not undermine his or her authority. Actually, there was an IFAB intermediate evaluation the other day coming to the conclusion that VAR is interfering too frequently, especially in Germany.

@ramsej: They don't want a challenge system, either.

I don't understand the obsession with leaving football traditional and having an omnipotent referee. Isn't the whole point of the referee to carry out justice? Or is the aim of the referee to have a 'bully' on the field who gets to decide everything? Why is it so important for the referee to carry the full burden on his or her shoulders?


Mutu, I completely agree!!!!

Why does a ref get to be the dictator in a game if he decides to do so? It irritates me to no **** end when a ref trys to be the center of attention. Mother****** you are here to keep the game fair , not assert your opinion and try to steal the headlines after the game. I love VAR , sometimes it needs to be tweaked but it is a welcome addition. Just like the turkish ref in the CL game a few weeks back, horrible ref and he needs VaR as much as possible to help him......
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Re: [2017-12-13] Bayern Munich vs FC Köln

Postby Element » Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:05 pm

YlonenXabi wrote:I think Jupp did a big mistake by fielding Tolisso, Rudy and Vidal against a double decker bus. Our first half was just terrible.

As I said multiple times, We should never start without James or Thiago, since Thiago is out, start James and sub him off when the job is done
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Re: [2017-12-13] Bayern Munich vs FC Köln

Postby tflags » Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:14 pm

MUTU wrote:Hence why I suggested that VAR is used for every wrong decision and, unless it's a big moment in the match, the ref should not review it but accept VAR's suggestion. The match would be fairer, the game would hardly be slowed down and the referee would have less fingers pointed at him (or Steinhaus).


And convert this to a Basketball match? Thanks but no thanks. I think the first set of implementations have worked well in the few games I've watch from the Bundesliga. The last game with the referee reversing a red card being a highlight, not a lowpoint.

Now the argument that the VAR system should be scrapped because the guy in charge can't make it clear when it should or shouldn't intervene is a poor one, I think. Don't know where it comes from but if you have a system where half the times the VAR has come in are ok; then you have something that is improving the ref's outcome by a considerable percentage.

If you need to set a new set of guidelines for a more uniform use, that is not really news is it? FIFA had to organize congress not that long ago as referees in Spain for example where applying a different set on parameters as to the use of ammonestation cards compared to the rest of Europe. Players in Spain got used to those rules and coming European travels, they couldn't understand the excesive bookings they were getting in turn.

So VAR is not the only system that might need tweaking. Sure that might be the case, but whatever instances it has come into fruition it certainly have, on a scale, been a more positive experience and an improvement on a broken system of a guy running around controlling 22 people for 90 minutes all by himself.
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