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[2022-01-07] Bayern Munich vs Borussia M'gladbach

Discussions on the German Bundesliga matches.

What is your prediction for this match?

Poll ended at Fri Jan 07, 2022 8:30 pm

Bayern Munich will win
2
100%
It will end in a draw
0
No votes
Borussia Mönchengladbach will win
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 2

Re: [2022-01-07] Bayern Munich vs Borussia M'gladbach

Postby aterford » Tue Jan 04, 2022 5:39 pm

I do think Ramsej actually kind of raises an interesting point.

At the end of the day I think the Kimmich discussion ultimately boils down to this: he didn't do everything he could to prevent himself from getting and/or spreading Covid.

Obviously in the case of Kimmich that came by way of not being vaccinated, but the end result is largely the same.

And so in the case of Lucas, Upamecano, Sane, Neuer, whoever... while they may have been vaccinated, they too also seemingly failed to do everything they could do to prevent getting/spreading Covid.

At the end of the day it seems like there are ultimately two ways to prevent infection/spread.
1. Get vaccinated
2. Practice good hygiene including but not limited to masking, social distancing, avoiding travel, handwashing, personal cleanliness, etc.

And so I guess the question is: Is a person who does (1) but fails to do (2) really that much better than a person who does (2) but fails to do (1)?

Not sure exactly where I stand but just food for thought I guess. Getting vaccinated is "easier" and perhaps even more effective (and should in theory allow for more freedoms in #2), but at the same time if we're going to criticize someone for "not doing everything they could" then that should apply both directions, I'd think.
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Re: [2022-01-07] Bayern Munich vs Borussia M'gladbach

Postby MUTU » Tue Jan 04, 2022 5:45 pm

aterford wrote:At the end of the day it seems like there are ultimately two ways to prevent infection/spread.
1. Get vaccinated
2. Practice good hygiene including but not limited to masking, social distancing, avoiding travel, handwashing, personal cleanliness, etc.

And so I guess the question is: Is a person who does (1) but fails to do (2) really that much better than a person who does (2) but fails to do (1)?

Not sure exactly where I stand but just food for thought I guess. Getting vaccinated is "easier" and perhaps even more effective (and should in theory allow for more freedoms in #2), but at the same time if we're going to criticize someone for "not doing everything they could" then that should apply both directions, I'd think.

Agreed completely with everything except one thing: no1 is obviously easier to do, but no2 is considerably more effective than no1.

i.e. someone who has minimal contact with other humans and is washing his hands non-stop, but didn't get vaccinated is far less likely to catch than someone who only gets vaccinated, but is always going around without a mask, signing autographs without cleaning his hands, going in crowded places etc.

In any case, both no1 and no2 are still taking risks.

In Kimmich's case, he possibly could have hit both. I mean didn't he end up getting infected by going to a party on literally the first day out of quarantine? Makes it difficult to argue he did everything he could do except for getting vaccinated.
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Re: [2022-01-07] Bayern Munich vs Borussia M'gladbach

Postby #12 » Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:03 pm

Also we do not know about his vacation… I doubt he was at home…
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Re: [2022-01-07] Bayern Munich vs Borussia M'gladbach

Postby aterford » Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:13 pm

Yeah to be fair I had kind of missed/forgot about that.

I was kind of making reference to when Kimmich gave that interview talking about how he wasn't getting vaccinated yet but claimed he was following all of the recommended health/hygiene guidelines otherwise. But he still got a bad reaction for "not doing everything"

Of course if he was going to parties and traveling on holiday as well then that's no good. But either way I think the point remains the same: a few weeks ago (months? My memory is sh*t lol) we criticized Kimmich for not doing all he could to prevent infection/spread, so we should be willing to do the same for others, too, even if the circumstances aren't exactly the same.
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Re: [2022-01-07] Bayern Munich vs Borussia M'gladbach

Postby MUTU » Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:15 pm

Meanwhile no one answered my question: could Bayern have legally asked the players and staff not to go on holiday, and heavily fined whoever still did so, irrespective of whether or not they got infected?
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Re: [2022-01-07] Bayern Munich vs Borussia M'gladbach

Postby MUTU » Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:24 pm

Interestingly, the odds still put us as major favourites despite these personnel issues. They range between 1.22 and 1.29 for a Bayern win.
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Re: [2022-01-07] Bayern Munich vs Borussia M'gladbach

Postby PunkCapitalist » Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:32 pm

aterford wrote:Yeah to be fair I had kind of missed/forgot about that.

I was kind of making reference to when Kimmich gave that interview talking about how he wasn't getting vaccinated yet but claimed he was following all of the recommended health/hygiene guidelines otherwise. But he still got a bad reaction for "not doing everything"

Of course if he was going to parties and traveling on holiday as well then that's no good. But either way I think the point remains the same: a few weeks ago (months? My memory is sh*t lol) we criticized Kimmich for not doing all he could to prevent infection/spread, so we should be willing to do the same for others, too, even if the circumstances aren't exactly the same.
Going to the lengths that MUTU describes is just unreasonable. That is not living. I won't criticize people for enjoying their lives, but Kimmich, on the other hand, had a very simple action available that would have improved his chances without significant costs and chose not to take it because whatever.
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Re: [2022-01-07] Bayern Munich vs Borussia M'gladbach

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:32 pm

aterford wrote:I do think Ramsej actually kind of raises an interesting point.

At the end of the day I think the Kimmich discussion ultimately boils down to this: he didn't do everything he could to prevent himself from getting and/or spreading Covid.

Obviously in the case of Kimmich that came by way of not being vaccinated, but the end result is largely the same.

And so in the case of Lucas, Upamecano, Sane, Neuer, whoever... while they may have been vaccinated, they too also seemingly failed to do everything they could do to prevent getting/spreading Covid.

At the end of the day it seems like there are ultimately two ways to prevent infection/spread.
1. Get vaccinated
2. Practice good hygiene including but not limited to masking, social distancing, avoiding travel, handwashing, personal cleanliness, etc.

And so I guess the question is: Is a person who does (1) but fails to do (2) really that much better than a person who does (2) but fails to do (1)?

Not sure exactly where I stand but just food for thought I guess. Getting vaccinated is "easier" and perhaps even more effective (and should in theory allow for more freedoms in #2), but at the same time if we're going to criticize someone for "not doing everything they could" then that should apply both directions, I'd think.
I’ve already had this conversation with MUTU and maybe I am wrong and in any case I don’t feel like reproducing it full, but there is one other factor to consider: the possibility that the vaccine is not doing much to prevent INFECTION by Omicron (irrespective of what it is doing with hospitalisations). Maybe it is hard to be conclusive about this yet, but it seems like a realistic possibility.

On the other hand, Kimmich had a variant which we know, 100% without a shred of doubt, the vaccine works against and reduces risk infection from.

If we accept this line of thought then Kimmich definitely did worse than the others, because he did not protect himself adequately against the variants circulating at the time. What happened later with other variants possibly evading vaccines is irrelevant as these players were bound to be at higher risk if their variant evades the vaccine more easily. Kimmich did not have the same thing, and had he been vaccinated it is very likely he would not have been out for so long.
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Re: [2022-01-07] Bayern Munich vs Borussia M'gladbach

Postby MUTU » Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:35 pm

PunkCapitalist wrote:
aterford wrote:Yeah to be fair I had kind of missed/forgot about that.

I was kind of making reference to when Kimmich gave that interview talking about how he wasn't getting vaccinated yet but claimed he was following all of the recommended health/hygiene guidelines otherwise. But he still got a bad reaction for "not doing everything"

Of course if he was going to parties and traveling on holiday as well then that's no good. But either way I think the point remains the same: a few weeks ago (months? My memory is sh*t lol) we criticized Kimmich for not doing all he could to prevent infection/spread, so we should be willing to do the same for others, too, even if the circumstances aren't exactly the same.
Going to the lengths that MUTU describes is just unreasonable. That is not living. I won't criticize people for enjoying their lives, but Kimmich, on the other hand, had a very simple action available that would have improved his chances without significant costs and chose not to take it because whatever.

I'm living with the recommendations: I always assume that everything that has not been sanitized is infected, including the air. I've sometimes walked out of shops because I saw someone with their nose hanging out of their masks. The biggest struggle is not with my hygiene and my wife's, it's with our daughter where it's not always easy to convince to sanitize/wash her hands just because she touched anything that wasn't sanitized.

I know I take it more to the extreme than anyone I know, and believe me, it IS an ordeal which I've been doing for 2 years now, but I wouldn't be able to live with myself if someone close to me, God forbid, ends up with permanent damage / death knowing I didn't do my absolute utmost to protect them from my end. It's something I do NOT want on my conscience.
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Re: [2022-01-07] Bayern Munich vs Borussia M'gladbach

Postby #12 » Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:39 pm

Also, I don’t think they all fly private btw, just to be clear… Actually, I highly doubt it!
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Re: [2022-01-07] Bayern Munich vs Borussia M'gladbach

Postby MUTU » Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:44 pm

#12 wrote:Also, I don’t think they all fly private btw, just to be clear… Actually, I highly doubt it!

Also would a private jet have enough range to fly directly from Germany to the Maldives?
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Re: [2022-01-07] Bayern Munich vs Borussia M'gladbach

Postby ramsej84 » Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:45 pm

In the meantime France spotted a new variant ... Originated from Cameroon....

Go and get the booster Ġaħan
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Re: [2022-01-07] Bayern Munich vs Borussia M'gladbach

Postby aterford » Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:46 pm

FCBayernMunchen wrote:If we accept this line of thought then Kimmich definitely did worse than the others, because he did not protect himself adequately against the variants circulating at the time. What happened later with other variants possibly evading vaccines is irrelevant as these players were bound to be at higher risk if their variant evades the vaccine more easily. Kimmich did not have the same thing, and had he been vaccinated it is very likely he would not have been out for so long.


Yes, but I'm not really sure this really helps the case for the other players - if anything I'd think it's the opposite: knowing that the vaccine does not protect as well against omicron (perhaps "knowing" is strong, but by all indications I think most are more or less aware of this notion) then that should be all the more reason to be doubly cautious in their behaviors, no?

See below...

PunkCapitalist wrote:
aterford wrote:Going to the lengths that MUTU describes is just unreasonable. That is not living. I won't criticize people for enjoying their lives, but Kimmich, on the other hand, had a very simple action available that would have improved his chances without significant costs and chose not to take it because whatever.


I'd agree with this too, but I'm just addressing the argument as it was presented a few weeks back with the Kimmich case. I won't go back and dig but I do think it's fair to say that the gist of it is that many were saying "Kimmich did not do enough to keep himself and other safe" or "Kimmich did not do everything he could do to prevent infection/spread of the virus" or "Kimmich had something he could have easily done to prevent infection/spread" and whatnot.

So it's not really meant to be a defense of Kimmich at all but I think at the end of the day, as before, it all ultimately boils down to each of these players not doing everything they can to limit infection/spread. It's true that Kimmich had something he could have easily done to prevent infection in getting the vaccine. But it's also true that it would have been easy for Lucas to choose to not travel 7,000km to the Maldives for holiday and could've stayed home with only close family/friends for the holidays and likely have greatly minimized his risk, too.

That said (and I guess this is veering more off towards just the Covid-thread topic rather than the matchthread, but...) I'm more or less playing devil's advocate here and more or less finding myself disagreeing with the notion that everyone should be expected to do every single thing they are able to minimize/eliminate any risk of infection. We should all be considerate and make reasonable accommodations but at the same time as Punk said above - people should be allowed to live. Pretty much the short of it for me is this: Get vaccinated and do what you want. But, like I said, perhaps that's a topic for the covid thread :lol:
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[2022-01-07] Bayern Munich vs Borussia M'gladbach

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:50 pm

It doesn’t absolve them, true, but at the same time MUTU has already indicated just how easy it is to get infected even if you take loads of precautions. Heck, Kimmich showed that too. The difference is that Kimmich could have had a backup which would likely have neutralised that slip-up, whereas for the other players this is maybe not an option (they are vaccinated and it’s not their fault we don’t have one specifically for omicron).

What I’m trying to say is, if all players followed both points 1 and 2, I would not be so surprised if we still had all or most of our current cases. However, I think there’s a very good chance we wouldn’t have had the Kimmich and Choupo cases or, at worst, not for so long.
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Re: [2022-01-07] Bayern Munich vs Borussia M'gladbach

Postby Ottomeister87 » Tue Jan 04, 2022 7:13 pm

I think the Bayern officials could have made a point for not travelling all over the world. The ECA isnt just for fun against the Africa Cup and their lack of covid protocols. And all normal human beings like us are told not to make unnecessary travels to foreign countries for holidays etc.

Most people who get sick from COVID dont make the money those players make, so yeah, the outcome like it is now, is pretty shitty for Bayern.
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