FC Bayern Forum

ramsej84 · by **ramsej84** » Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:58 am

MUTU wrote:
longeleven wrote:I don't know why people here so hard on Pavard.

I think it's clear why. In a strongest XI, he's probably our least-great player, thus he's the new punching bag / scapegoat.

We've been spoilt by great RBs in Babbel, Sagnol, Lahm and Kimmich. Unfortunately, Pavard is closer to an Oddo than a Lahm.

What the hell are you saying!?

MUTU · by **MUTU** » Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:00 am

I'm saying that Pavard is far from Lahm's level. I think that is fair. How many important matches has Pavard won for us on his own?

longeleven · by **longeleven** » Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:12 pm

MUTU wrote:I'm saying that Pavard is far from Lahm's level. I think that is fair. How many important matches has Pavard won for us on his own?

I think the real question here is at the moment how many RB in the world closer to Lahm than Oddo :mrgreen:

If number is less than 3, I''ll be happy with Pavard for awhile until we produce new Lahm from our academy.

ramsej84 · by **ramsej84** » Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:12 pm

How many Lahm did?

longeleven · by **longeleven** » Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:19 pm

MUTU wrote:
Selling would only make sense if and only if we can get someone stronger than him as a replacement, which I find quite challenging.

In terms of the strongest XI, I don't think Boateng should be near it. In my strongest XI, the backline is composed of Davies, Lucas, Suele, Pavard.

I mean in starting XI, not strongest XI. Agree with you on strongest back 4 part.
Alaba completely lost already, didn't step up as defense leader as well as failing in build up from behind.

MUTU · by **MUTU** » Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:25 pm

ramsej84 wrote:How many Lahm did?

Plenty with last ditch tackles.

MUTU · by **MUTU** » Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:30 pm

longeleven wrote:
MUTU wrote:I'm saying that Pavard is far from Lahm's level. I think that is fair. How many important matches has Pavard won for us on his own?

I think the real question here is at the moment how many RB in the world closer to Lahm than Oddo

If number is less than 3, I''ll be happy with Pavard for awhile until we produce new Lahm from our academy.

My point exactly. It IS higher than 3 though, but most would either be unrealistic or old.

FCBayernMunchen · by **FCBayernMunchen** » Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:39 pm

MUTU wrote:I'm saying that Pavard is far from Lahm's level. I think that is fair. How many important matches has Pavard won for us on his own?

Nevertheless he is closer to Lahm than Oddo (for Bayern)! I agree he’s far from Lahm or even Kimmich but he’s pretty good and imo underrated. He’s been playing poorly but so has everyone else.

MUTU · by **MUTU** » Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:15 pm

FCBayernMunchen wrote:
MUTU wrote:I'm saying that Pavard is far from Lahm's level. I think that is fair. How many important matches has Pavard won for us on his own?
Nevertheless he is closer to Lahm than Oddo (for Bayern)! I agree he’s far from Lahm or even Kimmich but he’s pretty good and imo underrated. He’s been playing poorly but so has everyone else.

OK we disagree on whether or not he's closed to Lahm or Oddo... however, don't you agree that if everyone was in-form and the coach played the strongest XI, he'd be the weakest link? I'm not saying he's bad, but he's below Bayern XI average for sure.

He's still a top 10-15 RB in the world to me, for that matter.

FCBayernMunchen · by **FCBayernMunchen** » Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:59 pm

Assuming everyone is in form, yes I’d agree. I can’t see who we could realistically get that would be an improvement though, other than a CM to play Kimmich there. Kimmich has beyond convinced me at CM though.

#12 · by **#12** » Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:17 pm

longeleven wrote:I don't know why people here so hard on Pavard. The boy already proved he can played at highest level last year.
You won't sell someone that good when they drop their form. There's so many reasons for that.

Agree on get rid of Alaba and Boateng but Tolisso is another story. He is not at Kimmich, Goretzka level ofc but every team need backup players. Same for Sarr or Douglas Costa and Choupo Mouting.

We won't win titles by these kind players but we do need them. Sell Tolisso and get another one, like who? with his quality and willing to be benched with that amount of money?

Did he?

IIRC he didn’t play much in the crucial stages that really were "highest level"... The only high level there was his cheering...

He‘s an ok solution, but the fact that he’s supposed to be our undisputed starting RB is laughable...
He‘s a good backup though...

Sell that joke Sarr and get someone good to start...

Fénix · by **Fénix** » Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:28 pm

We can't stop conceding goals. 21 conceded goals after just 14 matchdays! Probably the worst defensive record ever or in top 3 of all time apart from Klinsmann's Bayern 2008/2009 and Kovač's 2018/2019.

We start playing some serious football only after we are 1-2 goals down and then we turn the result and win 5:2 and so on. [-X

In my humble opinion, this season's Bayern has been absolutely carried by Neuer, Lewandowski, Müller and Kimmich.

Goretzka has been also great and extremely vital, productive and efficient at the start of the 2020/2021 season, but it seems to me he got exhausted over the last one month and I can entirely comprehend that, especially after Kimmich's injury.

Hernández and Coman are aboslute winners so far in the 2020/2021 season. They are on their way to join the mentioned crew.

Maybe I have left out Davies... Well, his performance so far has always been great, he is our vital LB and injury put him on hold, no doubt at all he is one of the carriers of this team.
However, it's been just one fantastic season and I still don't want to put any unnecessary pressure on him in case that the Canadian becomes inconsistent or loses his form. He is very young, still inexperienced and needs to learn a lot, doesn't have to be pushed strong out of his limits and his both defensive and offensive game should further improve.
All in all, he is A+ for FC Bayern.

As a conclusion, I'm not that happy that just 8 players in the starting 11 are doing their job and carry Bayern, that's a lot of work and requires a lot of energy and strength. 3 players are missing.

RB, CB, one winger and maybe another CB. That's where everything is looking extremely bad. Boateng and Pavard are F- this season.

Gnabry is lost, but not a disaster like Pavard who has completely lost himself after the injury. It's like he forgot how to play football. :roll:

Boateng is dead meat long time ago. Alaba is leaving and Flick is extremely stubborn and plays till the last drop of blood with him in the starting 11 when he has both top Hernández and Davies at his disposal to play every match.

If there is a top RB to sign on the market and he is ready to join us, we should not save any money at all. That spot has been empty for 2 years! [-X

FCBayernMunchen · by **FCBayernMunchen** » Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:47 pm

Fénix wrote:We can't stop conceding goals. 21 conceded goals after just 14 matchdays! Probably the worst defensive record ever or in top 3 of all time apart from Klinsmann's Bayern 2008/2009 and Kovač's 2018/2019.

After MD14:

Goals conceded:
2020/21: 21 goals
2019/20: 20 goals
2018/19: 18 goals
2017/18: 11 goals
2016/17: 9 goals
2008/09: 21 goals
2006/07: 17 goals

Goals scored:
2020/21: 44 goals O.O
2019/20: 35 goals
2018/19: 28 goals
2017/18: 34 goals
2016/17: 34 goals
2008/09: 33 goals
2006/07: 23 goals

Our defence has been getting progressively worst for at least 5 seasons and has now reached the level of Klinsmann.

aterford · by **aterford** » Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:25 pm

Fénix wrote:We can't stop conceding goals. 21 conceded goals after just 14 matchdays! Probably the worst defensive record ever or in top 3 of all time apart from Klinsmann's Bayern 2008/2009 and Kovač's 2018/2019.

We start playing some serious football only after we are 1-2 goals down and then we turn the result and win 5:2 and so on.

In my humble opinion, this season's Bayern has been absolutely carried by Neuer, Lewandowski, Müller and Kimmich.

Goretzka has been also great and extremely vital, productive and efficient at the start of the 2020/2021 season, but it seems to me he got exhausted over the last one month and I can entirely comprehend that, especially after Kimmich's injury.

Hernández and Coman are aboslute winners so far in the 2020/2021 season. They are on their way to join the mentioned crew.

Maybe I have left out Davies... Well, his performance so far has always been great, he is our vital LB and injury put him on hold, no doubt at all he is one of the carriers of this team.
However, it's been just one fantastic season and I still don't want to put any unnecessary pressure on him in case that the Canadian becomes inconsistent or loses his form. He is very young, still inexperienced and needs to learn a lot, doesn't have to be pushed strong out of his limits and his both defensive and offensive game should further improve.
All in all, he is A+ for FC Bayern.

As a conclusion, I'm not that happy that just 8 players in the starting 11 are doing their job and carry Bayern, that's a lot of work and requires a lot of energy and strength. 3 players are missing.

RB, CB, one winger and maybe another CB. That's where everything is looking extremely bad. Boateng and Pavard are F- this season.

Gnabry is lost, but not a disaster like Pavard who has completely lost himself after the injury. It's like he forgot how to play football.

Boateng is dead meat long time ago. Alaba is leaving and Flick is extremely stubborn and plays till the last drop of blood with him in the starting 11 when he has both top Hernández and Davies at his disposal to play every match.

If there is a top RB to sign on the market and he is ready to join us, we should not save any money at all. That spot has been empty for 2 years!

I find myself mostly agreeing, or at least halfway. I have said it before, but I think a lot of our goals we are conceding are not so much that our defense is awful but rather that we're a.) a bit unlucky and b.) just having a hard time getting 'up' for matches. I suspect that the fixture congestion plus the drain of last season PLUS the fact that we've just won everything is probably a big contributing factor in some slow starts, some mental fatigue. That's not to say there's zero tactical errors or that player-form doesn't play a part - it does - but it definitely feels to me like the biggest factor at the moment is just fatigue, be it both physical and/or mental.
As you mention it then, I think Davies is probably a good example. He has looked pretty gassed for much of the year, but after returning from injury (and subsequent rest), he looked just fantastic. I suspect just about everyone could use a break, especially a young player like Davies whose game is very high-stress (as it relates to his body).

But yes, I think your assessment of the squad is largely correct. To his credit I thought Gnabry was better yesterday than he was in recent matches, but his finishing still isn't really there and he overall looks far off where he was last season. He will need to step it up in a big way. IMO, Boateng has actually been really good this season. But I think it is starting to wear on him, and he can't be playing so often. Alaba often looks like a disaster waiting to happen, but for whatever reason Flick insists on playing him. I have a really hard time believing our defense would look worse starting Lucas+Sule than it would starting Alaba+Boa right now. And Pavard has just been really, really poor. Maybe a long layoff would do him good but I just don't know. He's looked like an entirely different player since getting hurt. I think if he gets back to form he's a very good player, but I do also think it's fair to say that if everyone's fit and in-form he's our most obvious weakness and probably the easiest position to improve at.

Aequitas1987 · by **Aequitas1987** » Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:04 pm

Its not an isolated statistic either. Goals conceded. Its a concious choice to a large degree that our high press, win ball back at all costs to crazy attack results in. It compromises our defense. We will concede more under Flicks high octane style - its simply the opportunity cost for the aggression.

Granted, 21 is a lot and quite a few of those goals were not only on breaks. Hoeever, in order to explode and play as well as we do in transitions our formations off the ball are also setup not purely for defensive solidarity.

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