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2019/20 Bundesliga Discussion Thread

Discussions on the German Bundesliga matches.
 

Re: 2019/20 Bundesliga Discussion Thread

Postby MaCk0y » Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:06 pm

Kramer got hit 3 times in the face/head. He is a magnet for head injuries.
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Re: 2019/20 Bundesliga Discussion Thread

Postby aterford » Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:07 am

So, a popular narrative I've seen thrown around a bit after the draw vs Augsburg (and pretty much any time we've dropped points vs a bad team) is something like "Well, Jupp/Pep/Carlo/etc dropped points vs bad teams too, it happens, not the end of the world!"

For me this is a gross oversimplification and may even be fair to say it's downright misleading.
You really need to consider the context when saying things like this. We all understand that dropping points when you're well clear at the top of the table (or have already won it!) is very different from dropping points when you're in the thick of a title race.
Below's how it breaks down over the past few years for comparison.

In 12/13 we won the league on MD28 (6 April). We dropped only two points vs bottom-half teams (10th place or lower), that was vs Nuremburg on MD12. At the time, we already had an 8-point lead and didn't drop a single point to bottom-half teams for the rest of the season. We earned 2.87 points on average vs bottom-half teams. Zero losses vs bottom-half teams.

In 13/14 we won the BL on MD27 (25 March), a new record. We drew vs Freiburg on MD4....from MD5 to MD34 we didn't drop even one point vs bottom-half teams. We had zero losses vs bottom-half teams. Averaged 2.72 points per match against that opposition.

In 14/15 we won the BL on MD30 (25 April). We ended up dropping a whole 7 points vs the bottom-half this year....the only loss of which came on MD33, when we'd already wrapped up the league. We earned 2.56 points vs bottom-half on average.

In 15/16, we didn't end up winning until MD33. But we only dropped 2 points vs bottom-half teams all year; that came in a draw vs Frankfurt on MD11 and we didn't drop any points to bottom-half teams for the rest of the year, zero bottom-half losses, 2.88 points on average.

In 16/17, we won the BL on MD31 (29 April). We dropped 6 points vs the bottom half. Four of those came in draws vs Leverkusen and Mainz on MD29/30; we had an 8-point lead at the time of each match. Zero bottom-half losses, 2.60 points on average.

In 17/18, we won the BL on MD29 (7 April). We dropped just 4 points vs bottom-half teams, and only 2 in the Hinrunde (Draw vs Wolfsburg, MD6). We only dropped points in one other match vs the bottom-half: a draw vs Hertha on MD24, when we had a measly 19 point lead at the top of the table. Zero losses vs the bottom-half and 2.78 points on average.

Since Kovac's taken over: of course, we didn't win the league until the final matchday (MD34, 18 May). At the moment we're sitting in 3rd. In 18/19, we dropped 13 points vs bottom-half teams and 6 of that came in the Hinrunde (2-point lead when we drew Augsburg on MD5; 2nd-place and 2 points behind when we drew Freiburg on MD10; 5th-place and 7 points back when we drew Dusseldorf on MD12; Tied for 1st when we drew Freiburg on MD27; 1-point lead when we drew Nuremburg on MD31)

Carrying over to this season, we've dropped 7 points vs bottom-half teams thus far (Draw vs Hertha on MD1; 1-point lead when we lost to Hoffenheim on MD7; 3rd-place and 2 points off the top heading into the Augsburg match)
On average, Kovac's Bayern has earned 2.18 points per match vs bottom-half teams.

So, yes, it's true, sometimes other managers DID lose vs bad teams - but none of them did so at the rate Kovac did nor in the same situations that he did, either. Food for thought.
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Re: 2019/20 Bundesliga Discussion Thread

Postby MUTU » Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:39 am

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Re: 2019/20 Bundesliga Discussion Thread

Postby Borusse » Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:47 am

Interesting, though the reason for it is that both Bayern and Dortmund are under-performing, both clubs should have at least 18 points if not more at this point and should start running away from the rest of the pack. If this continues then we might be going back to the Bundesliga of ten years ago when Bayern won the league with 70 points in 09/10 season, or Wolfsburg with 69 points a year before.
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Re: 2019/20 Bundesliga Discussion Thread

Postby Fénix » Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:52 am

Well, La Liga and Bundesliga are the most interesting leagues in the world, aren't they? :D

Seriously, in France it's clear that PSG are safe bet for the title, in Italy Juventus and Inter are having a title race after years and years of Napoli's pointless attempt to jeopardize Juventus' domination, but in all cases right now Juventus are miles away from Inter.

In England I can't see anyone creating mess to Liverpool and Manchester City. Tottenham have seriously fúcked up everything this season, Chelsea are far from being anything serious, Manchester United are completely lost case with their coaching staff and players, Arsenal are still very far from returning their elite status.

La Liga has become interesting only because 'crisis' in Madrid and Barcelona, otherwise both Spanish clubs along with Atlético would have been very far from the rest of the league thereby making the league interesting as usual.

Bundesliga has become interesting only because of Bayern in the last 3 seasons and that's it. Everything else speaks against both the league and its clubs when we see what German clubs have been achieving and producing on the international scene for the last 3-4 years in the CL, not to mention in the Europa League for the last 10-11 years.
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Re: 2019/20 Bundesliga Discussion Thread

Postby Borusse » Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:58 am

Yes, in Bundesliga it's unfortunately a case of the top team underperforming and not the smaller teams catching up like Atletico 5 years ago or Tottenham in the past few seasons under Pochettino, or Liverpool coming back on top with Klopp in charge etc. So it's not looking that great for German football right now.

But maybe in a year or two both Bayern and Dortmund start playing better, Leipzig will develop into a stronger team, maybe a team like Gladbach will start doing more noise in the league and in Europe. We'll have to wait and see.
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Re: 2019/20 Bundesliga Discussion Thread

Postby r10 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:39 am

Fénix wrote:in Italy Juventus and Inter are having a title race after years and years of Napoli's pointless attempt to jeopardize Juventus' domination
Pls mind AS Roma :coffee:.
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Re: 2019/20 Bundesliga Discussion Thread

Postby Fénix » Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:19 pm

Borusse wrote:Yes, in Bundesliga it's unfortunately a case of the top team underperforming and not the smaller teams catching up like Atletico 5 years ago or Tottenham in the past few seasons under Pochettino, or Liverpool coming back on top with Klopp in charge etc. So it's not looking that great for German football right now.

But maybe in a year or two both Bayern and Dortmund start playing better, Leipzig will develop into a stronger team, maybe a team like Gladbach will start doing more noise in the league and in Europe. We'll have to wait and see.

Exactly what you've said in the first part, that's exactly what Germany's cancer is and it isn't going to change any time soon nor far away.

But the second part... I hate that "maybe". Ever since "maybe" become something common in football, the whole sport went to hell. I don't share your optimism because after 2012, 2013 and 2014, I expected the golden era of German football, increasing quality and growth of BVB and Wolfsburg to change the whole German football both on domestic and international scene, but everything has gone down.
The same could be said for Favre's Gladbach back then, but he burned out after all departures, exactly like Klopp while Wolfsburg shut down their project in summer 2015.

Bundesliga needs an instant impact because there are people who are sick and tired of waiting for the last 15 years to see some serious progress and results within the league as well as outside of the league, primarily in the Europa League where Germans clubs should have been a driving force along with Sevilla, Atlético, Benfica and Porto, but it happened that English teams won 3 titles after Werder 2009 lost EL final in 2008/2009 while German teams are nowhere near semi-final clashes.
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Re: 2019/20 Bundesliga Discussion Thread

Postby Borusse » Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:23 pm

It's not optimism, I don't really think it will happen. I'm just hoping. :D
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Re: 2019/20 Bundesliga Discussion Thread

Postby Fénix » Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:31 pm

Borusse wrote:It's not optimism, I don't really think it will happen. I'm just hoping. :D

Aha... Znači nadaš se? Nada umire posljednja(Hope dies last). A poznato je da je Nada kurva. :mrgreen: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: If you understand some Croatian, haha. :wink:
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Re: 2019/20 Bundesliga Discussion Thread

Postby DRvad14 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:30 pm

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Re: 2019/20 Bundesliga Discussion Thread

Postby #12 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:57 pm

Who's responsible for that again? Oh yeah... :coffee:
- Rangnick or ten Hag in!
- Bring a DM, a winger (Sané) and Havertz!
- Get a REAL sports director (Rangnick?)!
- Keep Hoeness and Rummenigge far away from the team!
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Re: 2019/20 Bundesliga Discussion Thread

Postby Fénix » Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:03 pm

That's not just Bayern's problem, but a problem of all elite clubs nowadays. Nobody cares about defensive segment of the game as it used to be the case in the past and that possession and position crap has gone way too far.

The way Bayern has organized its defence for the last 3-4 years is simply horrible. Funkel is so right when he says about his team as well as Bayern who are 11 dimensions above Fortuna Düsseldorf.

Bundesliga is a junk compared to glory days between 2010 and 2015; clubs, competition, quality of matches, numerous quality players and stars in many clubs, even in those mid-table teams, way better international display in the CL yet Bayern is struggling to find a proper coach who shall seriously organize defensive game in both defensive line and the whole midfield.
We are conceding goals so easily like never before, I would dare to say(without any checking right now) conceding even more than during Klinsmann's 2008/2009 season. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Niko Kovač still hasn't found the right formula for Bayern's defensive game after almost year and a half and that's something that takes in the worst case max. 8-10 months for every coach/manager after arrival. Hummels was sold this summer who was marked as a disturbing factor in Bayern's defence, signed Hernández and Pavard and Bayern are looking even worse this season when it comes to defend.
The only difference between then and now is Neuer's great form, but even 2 Neuers between the goalposts wouldn't prevent us from conceding so many goals. :roll:
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Re: 2019/20 Bundesliga Discussion Thread

Postby #12 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 7:03 pm

Fénix wrote:That's not just Bayern's problem, but a problem of all elite clubs nowadays. Nobody cares about defensive segment of the game as it used to be the case in the past and that possession and position crap has gone way too far.

The way Bayern has organized its defence for the last 3-4 years is simply horrible. Funkel is so right when he says about his team as well as Bayern who are 11 dimensions above Fortuna Düsseldorf.

Bundesliga is a junk compared to glory days between 2010 and 2015; clubs, competition, quality of matches, numerous quality players and stars in many clubs, even in those mid-table teams, way better international display in the CL yet Bayern is struggling to find a proper coach who shall seriously organize defensive game in both defensive line and the whole midfield.
We are conceding goals so easily like never before, I would dare to say(without any checking right now) conceding even more than during Klinsmann's 2008/2009 season. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Niko Kovač still hasn't found the right formula for Bayern's defensive game after almost year and a half and that's something that takes in the worst case max. 8-10 months for every coach/manager after arrival. Hummels was sold this summer who was marked as a disturbing factor in Bayern's defence, signed Hernández and Pavard and Bayern are looking even worse this season when it comes to defend.
The only difference between then and now is Neuer's great form, but even 2 Neuers between the goalposts wouldn't prevent us from conceding so many goals. :roll:


No it’s not... Shitty get it done, Pool get it done, others as well... It’s the COACH'S job to do that... That ****'s our downfall!
- Rangnick or ten Hag in!
- Bring a DM, a winger (Sané) and Havertz!
- Get a REAL sports director (Rangnick?)!
- Keep Hoeness and Rummenigge far away from the team!
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Re: 2019/20 Bundesliga Discussion Thread

Postby IsiahRashad » Sun Oct 20, 2019 7:47 pm

Meanwhile, Hoffenheim with second win in a row against Schalke. Schalke looked like us against them. :roll:
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