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2017/2018 Bundesliga Generic Discussion Thread

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Re: 2017/2018 Bundesliga Generic Discussion Thread

Postby America USA » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:38 pm

MUTU wrote:
America USA wrote:In any case, I am happy with the 50+1 rule. I don’t want any Oil merchants in German football and I certainly don’t want a Stan Kroenke type billionaire buying Bayern/Dortmund and then turning them into the next Arsenal (where the fans have no power whatsoever and the rich owner runs the club the way he wants from several thousand miles away)

Well, that's a con obviously. But, on the whole, don't you believe that there is more quality in the Premier League thanks to investors than there'd have been had there not been any investors?


I see/have seen PL games for many years and I do not for one moment believe there is more quality in the PL than the Bundesliga. 70% of the PL teams, including Manchester United and sometimes Chelsea too, Park the Bus and play Hoofball. The only people who propagate this PL superior quality stuff are jingoistic Englishmen, Pundits on TV who have to say what their audiences want to hear and what their sponsors want them to say or people who are just naive. The disparity in the PL table between the Top 6 and the rest is appalling. Only Arsenal’s pathetic season so far has kept them as close to Burnley as they are.

As for investors improving the PL quality. Since 2000 only three times have PL clubs lifted the European Cup.

#12 wrote:Not a fact for me... The PL gets an insane amount of money from TV deals... Investors are not the reason the PL is overhyped in Asia and whatnot...

12 is right. The Investors are not responsible for the recent money. The money that the new TV deal is bringing in is. Sky has made the PL what it is through marketing and, I repeat, the legacy of the English language left by the British Empire has played a huge role in making the PL the global brand it is. The PL is not the most popular league in Asia and Africa because of its quality, it is because of language and the impact that centuries of English rule/influence had on the cultures of those Asian/African countries.

The BL needs to start marketing itself in English if it wants to make inroads into Asia/Africa.
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Re: 2017/2018 Bundesliga Generic Discussion Thread

Postby ramsej84 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:41 pm

Racist... give me a break
It is a concern... which I also highlighted in my comment... for the NT.

The same scenario is being discussed locally... Maltese clubs will soon start fielding 11 non Maltese...
Do you think that this is positive....?

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Re: 2017/2018 Bundesliga Generic Discussion Thread

Postby MUTU » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:47 pm

#12 wrote:
FCBayernMunchen wrote:
MUTU wrote:[quote="America USA"]In any case, I am happy with the 50+1 rule. I don’t want any Oil merchants in German football and I certainly don’t want a Stan Kroenke type billionaire buying Bayern/Dortmund and then turning them into the next Arsenal (where the fans have no power whatsoever and the rich owner runs the club the way he wants from several thousand miles away)

Well, that's a con obviously. But, on the whole, don't you believe that there is more quality in the Premier League thanks to investors than there'd have been had there not been any investors?

There's no belief there, it's a fact. This is even more obvious if you look at France. None of the stars there would even consider playing there for 1 second if it were not for the investors.


Not a fact for me... The PL gets an insane amount of money from TV deals... Investors are not the reason the PL is overhyped in Asia and whatnot...[/quote]Chicken or egg situation. Fact is that their mind-boggling deal is post investor age. Without the quality boost that investors gave their clubs, the deal would not have been so crazy.
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Re: 2017/2018 Bundesliga Generic Discussion Thread

Postby ramsej84 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:47 pm

America USA wrote:
MUTU wrote:
America USA wrote:In any case, I am happy with the 50+1 rule. I don’t want any Oil merchants in German football and I certainly don’t want a Stan Kroenke type billionaire buying Bayern/Dortmund and then turning them into the next Arsenal (where the fans have no power whatsoever and the rich owner runs the club the way he wants from several thousand miles away)

Well, that's a con obviously. But, on the whole, don't you believe that there is more quality in the Premier League thanks to investors than there'd have been had there not been any investors?


I see/have seen PL games for many years and I do not for one moment believe there is more quality in the PL than the Bundesliga. 70% of the PL teams, including Manchester United and sometimes Chelsea too, Park the Bus and play Hoofball. The only people who propagate this PL superior quality stuff are jingoistic Englishmen, Pundits on TV who have to say what their audiences want to hear and what their sponsors want them to say or people who are just naive. The disparity in the PL table between the Top 6 and the rest is appalling. Only Arsenal’s pathetic season so far has kept them as close to Burnley as they are.

As for investors improving the PL quality. Since 2000 only three times have PL clubs lifted the European Cup.

#12 wrote:Not a fact for me... The PL gets an insane amount of money from TV deals... Investors are not the reason the PL is overhyped in Asia and whatnot...

12 is right. The Investors are not responsible for the recent money. The money that the new TV deal is bringing in is. Sky has made the PL what it is through marketing and, I repeat, the legacy of the English language left by the British Empire has played a huge role in making the PL the global brand it is. The PL is not the most popular league in Asia and Africa because of its quality, it is because of language and the impact that centuries of English rule/influence had on the cultures of those Asian/African countries.

The BL needs to start marketing itself in English if it wants to make inroads into Asia/Africa.
Our only chance is the gulf...
I have the impression that most Arab countries support the German NT...
I have seen scenes from Palestine, Jordan, Lebanon amonst others of pure joy when Lahm lifted the Golden Cup into Rio 's sky

Forget South America and Asia.... the formers are Barca and Real fan boys/girls
The latter adhore the English long balls.

The US may be attrective since a lot of Germans live there... and many Americans have relatives living in Germany.

Africa is divided between EPL and la liga I guess although I do believe that French football is also very popular in Africa

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Re: 2017/2018 Bundesliga Generic Discussion Thread

Postby MUTU » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:57 pm

ramsej84 wrote:Racist... give me a break
It is a concern... which I also highlighted in my comment... for the NT.

The same scenario is being discussed locally... Maltese clubs will soon start fielding 11 non Maltese...
Do you think that this is positive....?

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Yes I think it would be beneficial for the Maltese NT if there are more foreigners. Same holds for Germany. If you have more foreigners it means only one thing: that the level of football has improved to an extent where only the top local players get a chance to play, and when they do it would be against quality opposition rather than weak opposition so they would improve. The ones who aren't good enough for the top division should play in a lower division and test themselves against players of their quality.
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Re: 2017/2018 Bundesliga Generic Discussion Thread

Postby America USA » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:59 pm

ramsej84 wrote:Racist... give me a break
It is a concern... which I also highlighted in my comment... for the NT.


This is a legitimate concern of mine. The big PL clubs have become nothing but various World XI fighting each other. (Lukas would agree with this) The impact is directly reflected in England not having won anything in over five decades. I don’t want to see the German NT going the English NT way. Things have been fine with Die Mannschaft in the past decade and there is no need (IMO) to fix a thing that isn’t broken. Also, I think everyone should wait for a couple of more seasons at least to see if BL teams keep failing in Europe. We need to see if this season was an anomaly or will be the norm.

Also, I don’t agree with most of ramsej’s Right wing talk but come on MU! Lets stop throwing around the word Racist so as to make it meaningless.
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Re: 2017/2018 Bundesliga Generic Discussion Thread

Postby MUTU » Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:18 pm

America USA wrote:
ramsej84 wrote:Racist... give me a break
It is a concern... which I also highlighted in my comment... for the NT.


This is a legitimate concern of mine. The big PL clubs have become nothing but various World XI fighting each other. (Lukas would agree with this) The impact is directly reflected in England not having won anything in over five decades. I don’t want to see the German NT going the English NT way. Things have been fine with Die Mannschaft in the past decade and there is no need (IMO) to fix a thing that isn’t broken. Also, I think everyone should wait for a couple of more seasons at least to see if BL teams keep failing in Europe. We need to see if this season was an anomaly or will be the norm.

Also, I don’t agree with most of ramsej’s Right wing talk but come on MU! Lets stop throwing around the word Racist so as to make it meaningless.
The people pointing towards England NT's results as 'proof' that having more investment in the league is bad for the national team should realise that the English national team was disappointing fans one tournament after the next far before investors came along. Instead, look at Italy. FFP came along, owners like Berlusconi and Moratti were limited, the quality of the league went down and the national team failed to qualify for the world cup. Surely with less (relative) investment, the Italian NT should have been better with your arguments, no?
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Re: 2017/2018 Bundesliga Generic Discussion Thread

Postby Dumbledore7 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:20 pm

ramsej84 wrote:It is a concern... which I also highlighted in my comment... for the NT.

The last World Cup was won by a Spanish Bayern coach. No concern.
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Re: 2017/2018 Bundesliga Generic Discussion Thread

Postby America USA » Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:29 pm

MUTU wrote:
America USA wrote:
ramsej84 wrote:Racist... give me a break
It is a concern... which I also highlighted in my comment... for the NT.


This is a legitimate concern of mine. The big PL clubs have become nothing but various World XI fighting each other. (Lukas would agree with this) The impact is directly reflected in England not having won anything in over five decades. I don’t want to see the German NT going the English NT way. Things have been fine with Die Mannschaft in the past decade and there is no need (IMO) to fix a thing that isn’t broken. Also, I think everyone should wait for a couple of more seasons at least to see if BL teams keep failing in Europe. We need to see if this season was an anomaly or will be the norm.

Also, I don’t agree with most of ramsej’s Right wing talk but come on MU! Lets stop throwing around the word Racist so as to make it meaningless.
The people pointing towards England NT's results as 'proof' that having more investment in the league is bad for the national team should realise that the English national team was disappointing fans one tournament after the next far before investors came along. Instead, look at Italy. FFP came along, owners like Berlusconi and Moratti were limited, the quality of the league went down and the national team failed to qualify for the world cup. Surely with less (relative) investment, the Italian NT should have been better with your arguments, no?[/quote]
Italy is a prime example of why investors hurt in the long term. If the sugar daddy grows tired and decides to abandon the ship (something that could happen to Chelsea) then the Club’s fall from grace is spectacular (AC Milan for instance).

Re: the National team. The Serie A peaked in the 90s and early 00s due to investment and the Italian national team didn’t win anything until 2006. Italy’s problem is similar to that of England. During the investors reign almost no investment was made into the Italian youth and as a result the coming generations have suffered. Germany since that early 00s overhaul has been doing alright in major tournaments and if anything they need to start focusing on making the youth sides more competitive in the u21,19,17 tournaments.

As for German talent going abroad, it is a good sign IMO, because that means the German youth are considered so good that Foreign clubs are willing to throw loads of cash on them rather than develop their own talent. Look at the French NT, hardly any of their top players is in the Ligue 1 and yet they are such a strong outfit.

Please read the text I Quoted in the last post on Page 37. It is from another football forums and it is a very well written piece on this issue.
Last edited by America USA on Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2017/2018 Bundesliga Generic Discussion Thread

Postby MUTU » Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:42 pm

Agreed with fall of grace in cases when investors abandon ship, but they're likely to be at a level that's similar or better than they'd have been if investments weren't made, depending on how many fans they made in the meantime and how much the owner invested in youth development.

Let's say Hopp dumps Hoffenheim. They would still have the stadium and facilities he built for them, and why they may struggle going forward I would find it unlikely that they would be relegated some 3 or 4 divisions. And even if that was indeed to happen, they'd be in the same place they would have been had Hopp never taken over.

This argument of not getting investments for fear of falling back down to reality is akin to refusing to go out with that beautiful girl out of your league who actually wants you for fear that one day she may dump you and you would find yourself single again.
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Re: 2017/2018 Bundesliga Generic Discussion Thread

Postby #12 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:10 pm

MUTU very easy answer: Uli Hoeness would not be this clubs president as he is still on parole and a former convict... Therefore, Heynckes would not be it’s coach and we would fight for EL qualification... Any further questions? ;)
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Re: 2017/2018 Bundesliga Generic Discussion Thread

Postby MUTU » Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:15 pm

#12 wrote:MUTU very easy answer: Uli Hoeness would not be this clubs president as he is still on parole and a former convict... Therefore, Heynckes would not be it’s coach and we would fight for EL qualification... Any further questions? ;)

So if Bayern were allowed to sell 26% more of their shares to Porsche, Hoeness would no longer be working at Bayern? What if Hoeness' sausage factory bought those 26% shares, would he still be required to step down?
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Re: 2017/2018 Bundesliga Generic Discussion Thread

Postby #12 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:24 pm

Doubt they‘d have the money... Don’t know for sure... But multi-national concerns would not allow a former convict as chairman...
Bayern members voted for him...
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Re: 2017/2018 Bundesliga Generic Discussion Thread

Postby MUTU » Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:31 pm

#12 wrote:Doubt they‘d have the money... Don’t know for sure... But multi-national concerns would not allow a former convict as chairman...
Bayern members voted for him...

We're talking hypothetically.
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Re: 2017/2018 Bundesliga Generic Discussion Thread

Postby #12 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:32 pm

I know... But maybe they would keep him... I think every other big enterprise- not so much...
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