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2017/2018 Bundesliga Generic Discussion Thread

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Re: 2017/2018 Bundesliga Generic Discussion Thread

Postby MUTU » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:07 am

In France:
J. Draxler
K. Trapp
D. Contento
M. Ristl
P. Kapp

Of which 1 ex-Bayern.
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Re: 2017/2018 Bundesliga Generic Discussion Thread

Postby MUTU » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:16 am

Would I be wrong if I said that the majority of the players I mentioned in the previous 4 posts are playing outside of their home country because they are getting a better salary than they were offered in Germany? Or better sporting chances due to the foreign club being richer? If German clubs had much more money, they'd be able to compete better in Europe as well as offer more competitive wages, and thus retain their players. It hurts me seeing this exodus of players, one transfer window after the other.
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Re: 2017/2018 Bundesliga Generic Discussion Thread

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:15 pm

MUTU wrote:Would I be wrong if I said that the majority of the players I mentioned in the previous 4 posts are playing outside of their home country because they are getting a better salary than they were offered in Germany? Or better sporting chances due to the foreign club being richer? If German clubs had much more money, they'd be able to compete better in Europe as well as offer more competitive wages, and thus retain their players. It hurts me seeing this exodus of players, one transfer window after the other.


Yesterday I had a similar discussion with a friend on English players and how rarely they seem to leave the country. My conclusion was similar. It's money that keeps players there.


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Re: 2017/2018 Bundesliga Generic Discussion Thread

Postby Achilles » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:27 pm

MUTU wrote:Would I be wrong if I said that the majority of the players I mentioned in the previous 4 posts are playing outside of their home country because they are getting a better salary than they were offered in Germany? Or better sporting chances due to the foreign club being richer? If German clubs had much more money, they'd be able to compete better in Europe as well as offer more competitive wages, and thus retain their players. It hurts me seeing this exodus of players, one transfer window after the other.

Every situation differs though, many of these players were "cut loose" rather than demanding a salary or something similar, I talk about the quality players(Ter Stegen,Trapp,Draxler,Kroos,Khedira,Howedes) the other players are low-level.

Ter Stegen had a direct offer from Barca and Gladbach accept their bid it's a normal situation of developing as a player, I don't think money paid any role in that decision, I suppose that even if Gladbach matched their offer he'd choose Barca. Draxler moved internally first then again he was unhappy, I don't think that any big German club approached him but again when he had a chance to move to Juventus(arguably bigger and better club than any club in Germany except Bayern) he chose VfL. Kroos indeed moved because of money but it's a grey area there cuz we did raise his salary but not as much as he asked and he moved to an equally good team, ultimately yes his decision was made for better earnings. Howedes had issues with his coach and as a die-hard/captain of Schalke he chose not to "Betray" them moving abroad to a top team, clearly not a salary issue because he already earned good money(maybe less or equal from Turin) Trapp & Khedira's cases are close to Ter Stegen. I don't think that any of them moved because of Bundesliga or bad projects from now on though the things will change because the league is seriously lacking competition,quality and consistency in the European stage(EL & CL) S04 & Bayer are choking, BVB have lost their way since Tuchel's divorce and RBL is too early to judge.
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Re: 2017/2018 Bundesliga Generic Discussion Thread

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:32 pm

Achilles wrote:I don't think money paid any role in that decision, I suppose that even if Gladbach matched their offer he'd choose Barca.

But money does not refer to just the money offered to the player, but the money the club has in order to invest in a better team. Take City, for example. 15 years ago no player of theirs would have refused the chance to move to Barca if they got it. Nowadays, that's not quite so certain.

In Germany only we can offer players sporting and financial success, so the players will move even if money is not everything for them. Greater investment would probably change this eventually.
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Re: 2017/2018 Bundesliga Generic Discussion Thread

Postby MUTU » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:45 pm

Achilles wrote:I talk about the quality players(Ter Stegen,Trapp,Draxler,Kroos,Khedira,Howedes) the other players are low-level.

You're selectively missing quite a number of players who aren't "low-level", such as Özil, Gündoğan, Sané, Mustafi, Rüdiger and Can, all of which I consider to be better than Khedira and/or Hoewedes.
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Re: 2017/2018 Bundesliga Generic Discussion Thread

Postby MUTU » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:50 pm

FCBayernMunchen wrote:
Achilles wrote:I don't think money paid any role in that decision, I suppose that even if Gladbach matched their offer he'd choose Barca.

But money does not refer to just the money offered to the player, but the money the club has in order to invest in a better team. Take City, for example. 15 years ago no player of theirs would have refused the chance to move to Barca if they got it. Nowadays, that's not quite so certain.

In Germany only we can offer players sporting and financial success, so the players will move even if money is not everything for them. Greater investment would probably change this eventually.

To add to what FCBayernMunchen said, the money that the investors brought in allowed clubs to improve the quality of the Premier League, and that made it much more attractive to football fans around the world. The Premier League continues eating market share (in terms of % of viewers) from the Bundesliga and other leagues, all thanks to investors.

Unless something changes soon, the Bundesliga is going the way of the Eredivisie, and the only players that the German clubs will get from Premier League clubs are ones on loan with no option to buy, the Batshuayis of the world. In the short-term: why would the Chinese football fan be interested in watching two Bundesliga clubs with mediocre players playing each other in a stadium packed with jumping fans when, airing at the same time, there might be two Premier League clubs with star players playing each other in a stadium packed with seated fans?
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Re: 2017/2018 Bundesliga Generic Discussion Thread

Postby Achilles » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:29 pm

Agreed on that, Bundesliga needs adjustments as for the players I didn't write, I just pick the best ones from the list you wrote.
Nevertheless if our competitors and the DFB keep this thing going on then all the good German players who doesn't fit or there is no room for Bayern will end up eventually abroad, that's for sure.
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Re: 2017/2018 Bundesliga Generic Discussion Thread

Postby MUTU » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:30 pm

MUTU wrote:In the short-term: why would the Chinese football fan be interested in watching two Bundesliga clubs with mediocre players playing each other in a stadium packed with jumping fans when, airing at the same time, there might be two Premier League clubs with star players playing each other in a stadium packed with seated fans?

... quoting the Bayern ultras, "football without fans is not worth a penny."
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Re: 2017/2018 Bundesliga Generic Discussion Thread

Postby MUTU » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:37 pm

Achilles wrote:Agreed on that, Bundesliga needs adjustments as for the players I didn't write, I just pick the best ones from the list you wrote.
Nevertheless if our competitors and the DFB keep this thing going on then all the good German players who doesn't fit or there is no room for Bayern will end up eventually abroad, that's for sure.

... and eventually Bayern would be unable to compete in Europe.

Are we so stubborn to persist in resisting investors and getting ever so close to this eventuality, just because we want to dictate that a club could own 50.1% of shares but not 49.9%?
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Re: 2017/2018 Bundesliga Generic Discussion Thread

Postby America USA » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:56 pm

I personally like the fact that Top German players are playing for top European clubs across the Big five leagues. That means the players can learn different styles of the sport played in different nations and hence when they all come together they will each be able to offer unique perspectives.

English football is mostly about park the bus, physicality and set pieces. Spain is about possession, controlling midfield and some teams are excellent on counters (Real Madrid for instance). Italy is about defending in numbers but pressing when the opponent comes in your half, counters and physicality (like England). Germany is about high energy pressing and a mix of possession/quick counters. So if Die Mannschaft has players in various leagues they will know how to play the different styles and thus improve the NT with more knowledge.

I have read many English supporters online say the opposite of what some users want on this thread. They want English players to go out to Germany, Italy and Spain so that they develop more as players and leave their comfort zones in the PL. The English also think that the PL money/foreign ownership has ruined their NT because the youngsters hardly ever get a run in the PL and thus their development stagnates and when the International competitions come the best players (who are from Beligium, Germany, Spain, South America, etc.) return and England is left with overrated Englishmen who fare badly in International events.

I guess the grass is always greener on the other side :roll:

————————————————————————————

Dumbledore7 wrote: Sheeps shouldn't be able to have control over anything. Leave it to the rich, smart and powerful.


Not often am I triggered but I find this statement above (especially the red part) very offensive and sad.

So according to this logic we should all grovel at the feet of the rich and suck their dicks. Wow =D>

This exact thinking led to the election of Donald Trump. Just because someone is “rich and powerful” he must be great and we the peasants must flock to him as our saviour. :lol:

The words rich/powerful and smart are NOT synonyms. Not every rich dude is Bill Gates. There are many dudes who have inherited their wealth or done nothing significant to become rich. Case in point. The middle east before the discovery of oil was not a very great place to live in. All these sheikhs who are ruling at the moment would be nothing had they not discovered the black gold buried under their lands. They didn’t do anything exceptional to become “rich and powerful” than to be fortunate enough to find an exhaustible natural resource.

If a homeless college dropout who is addicted to drugs one day finds a diamond mine, he becomes rich and with his riches he can find “power.” So as per the above twisted mentality that person knows more and is a better leader than lets say your average PhD. student or small time Entrepreneur. :evil:

Rich/Powerful DOEST NOT equate to being Smart and having Leadership qualities. Lincoln was born into abject poverty but he went on to become one of our greatest presidents. Being a good leader is so much more about being the richest, most powerful or even the smartest guy. It is also about working towards the greater good and doing what is morally right.

Seriously though, Dumbledore are you advocating for an oligarchy or plutocracy? If so I suggest moving to the US because you will get along very well with the Koch brothers here in America!
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Re: 2017/2018 Bundesliga Generic Discussion Thread

Postby Dumbledore7 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:15 pm

America USA wrote:So according to this logic we should all grovel at the feet of the rich and suck their dicks. Wow =D>


Again with the sheep attitude. Interesting that the first message you got from my post was to immediately succumb to the powerful, rather than attempting to be one that everything should be left to. My thinking was we should therefore be incentivised to be THE top people. Strive to improve yourself instead of staying sheeps. Be the one whose feet everyone else will grovel at. If that is not comprehensible to you, you want to stay at the bottom of the food chain, my condolences. Two kinds of people I guess.

Also kind of convenient that you left out "smart" out of the combination and just stuck to referring to "rich and powerful" to give a bad flavour to my post. Did I even speak of them as synonyms? These are three mutually exclusive adjectives, from which a combination is made. Typical lawyer twisting facts and statements. Is Donald Trump smart? No. So judging from your inferred logic from my post, would I have liked him to rule? No.

Don't even try.
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Re: 2017/2018 Bundesliga Generic Discussion Thread

Postby Dumbledore7 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:17 pm

MUTU wrote:
MUTU wrote:In the short-term: why would the Chinese football fan be interested in watching two Bundesliga clubs with mediocre players playing each other in a stadium packed with jumping fans when, airing at the same time, there might be two Premier League clubs with star players playing each other in a stadium packed with seated fans?

... quoting the Bayern ultras, "football without fans is not worth a penny."

Yet they keep paying to watch games. Why don't they try sitting out games? Banners won't do anything.
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Re: 2017/2018 Bundesliga Generic Discussion Thread

Postby America USA » Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:03 pm

If you read my reply again carefully (instead of jumping on a personal ad hominem with the “lawyer” gibe) you’ll see I have addressed the “smart” part of your previous post.

The rich and powerful parts were the most egregious though. According to your logic, if someone is smart + rich then that person has a divine right to rule over the “masses”. Okay :wink:

In any case, I am happy with the 50+1 rule. I don’t want any Oil merchants in German football and I certainly don’t want a Stan Kroenke type billionaire buying Bayern/Dortmund and then turning them into the next Arsenal (where the fans have no power whatsoever and the rich owner runs the club the way he wants from several thousand miles away)

Here is a post from another football forum I really like in this regard:
Looking at the table, the title "race" and the international cups, I feel the Bundesliga needs some new impulses.

The scouting and development has always been good, but everyone bar Bayern is struggling with financially more powerful competitors from foreign leagues to land or keep these young talents.
Foreign talent sometimes still ends up in Germany, but is quickly gone. Own talent is starting to glance towards England, too.
problem is, if you can't financially compete for expensive quality players you need to rebuild again and again with young talent. To build a team you need about 2 to 4 seasons. Now if these young players get signed away quickly, there's not really a chance to build teams anymore.

There has been lots of noise surrounding the 50+1 rule, which prohibits investors from having a majority in shares, which has to remain with the actual club. Lately, Hannover's main investor, as well as Hamburg's and Hoffenheim's before that, have had a go at this rule, saying it weakens the Bundesliga's ability to challenge internationally because of financial constraints.

I think it's a good rule. It puts the focus on healthy, longterm business strategies as well as consistency and quality in the operational side of football and backroom work.
It has been a reason for the resurgence of german talent since about mid last decade, then helped develop the scouting system for foreign talent from about 2012/13 on, and bar Red Bull, has as of now kept more shady business deals out of the league. It has allowed the clubs, as majority shareholders, as well as fans, to stay relevant in club matters. I don't think it should be revoked, as I fully expect the financial bubble of football to explode at some point in the future.

I think, next to financial constraints, the main two reasons are down to player development and cowardly tactics in the fight to reach international spots or not get relegated.
The surgence of quick, system focused football in the last decade has lead to a lot of players being formed into quite one dimensional system pieces. Basically pass and move, pass and move, fulfill your task in a system, and thus has robbed them of their innate creativity and playfulness. That's a critique Mehmet Scholl voiced, and I do think he's right to some degree. If you look at teams like Hertha, Augsburg, Frankfurt, Hoffenheim, etc...they all managed to implement a system that gets them to where they want to be, but the focus on that system and the lack of true, above average talent prevents them from pushing on. And that talent is too expensive to buy or leaves early for higher wages.
The need to generate income via league position, and especially the need to stay in the top division, puts so much stress on managers and clubs, they always aim for the safe bet. They'd rather play it safe and finish 8th, then play it risky and aim for 5th, because they could end up finishing 11th. The refreshing, quick, pressing game from around 2010 to 2014 has become stale and defensive.

While I do think the finances are a problem, I'd still not overrule 50+1 for already stated reasons. I'd advocate a TV deal that's more fair, further focus on scouting and developing talent, as well as finding some means to keep them at a club longer. High release clauses, a ruling or precedence on striking players, stuff like that.
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Re: 2017/2018 Bundesliga Generic Discussion Thread

Postby Dumbledore7 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:18 pm

Why address them separately when they clearly should have been in combination, unless you just wanted to bring up Trump and sheikhs? Lazy argument.

America USA wrote:According to your logic, if someone is smart + rich then that person has a divine right to rule over the “masses”. Okay :wink:

Correct. Glad you got my point.
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