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Timo Werner

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Re: Timo Werner

Postby FCB12Forever » Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:26 am

aterford wrote:
FCB12Forever wrote:Just wondering, is it weak mentality, or just that he still had problems with his neck?


What are you referring to? I'm 100% him getting subbed off against us was purely tactical, nothing to do with mentality or health problems. Though I don't think he seems quite back to 100% either.


He's been through a lot of shit these days. First his neck/spine problem outbroke at Besiktas, thus leading to Turk fans shitting on him, then he came back and bumped right into Bayern ,missed a 120' minute goal, missed penalty, then forced to sub off after the red card. If he's really got a weak mentality I would say he is done.
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Re: Timo Werner

Postby #12 » Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:06 am

I don’t think he’s the leader type... But few strikers are... And he’s still young... I‘m not particularly fond of his personality, but regarding soccer he’s got the right attitude in many aspects...
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Re: Timo Werner

Postby RedQueen » Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:20 pm

Bild has a lengthy article today on what Timo has been through, not only during the last year, but especially while he was still with Stuttgart. I'd say that was probably worse.

Learned from that article that Leipzig had worked out a special plan for him before he joined them, not only on but especially off the pitch. Also that it was harder for him to cope with the hate than he admitted.

Both in Stuttgart and in Leipzig the team psychologist helped him / is still helping him.

So yes, he seems to be a bit on the sensitive side, if that's what you mean by "weak mentality".
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Re: Timo Werner

Postby ramsej84 » Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:25 pm

RedQueen wrote:Bild has a lengthy article today on what Timo has been through, not only during the last year, but especially while he was still with Stuttgart. I'd say that was probably worse.

Learned from that article that Leipzig had worked out a special plan for him before he joined them, not only on but especially off the pitch. Also that it was harder for him to cope with the hate than he admitted.

Both in Stuttgart and in Leipzig the team psychologist helped him / is still helping him.

So yes, he seems to be a bit on the sensitive side, if that's what you mean by "weak mentality".


I am afraid the FC Bayern is not the ideal place for him...
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Re: Timo Werner

Postby FCB12Forever » Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:22 pm

No start for him again.

I think he is entering a long slump period.

*Edit: today I learned something. Do not arbitrarily put conclusions on ppl..
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Re: Timo Werner

Postby Manchu » Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:11 pm

Can't see tweet? Click here!
Quite talented and his projected peak is recovering from his slump at Stuttgart but would still be a substantial downgrade from Lewandowski at least for now and perhaps forever.
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Re: Timo Werner

Postby #12 » Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:36 pm

And he’s not yet world class...
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Re: Timo Werner

Postby RedQueen » Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:43 pm

Of course he isn't. But he's arguably better than Lewandowski was at his age. Remember Lewandowski being the bench warmer behind Barrios in his first Dortmund season? That was 2010/11. Lewy was 22 back then.
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Re: Timo Werner

Postby FCB12Forever » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:12 am

Manchu wrote: Can't see tweet? Click here!
Quite talented and his projected peak is recovering from his slump at Stuttgart but would still be a substantial downgrade from Lewandowski at least for now and perhaps forever.


That is *surprisingly low. IIRC it's lower than some players at RBL who lacked spotlight, e.g. Kevin Kampl and Stefan Ilsanker. And the graph does not show world-class potential: a peak GI of ~150 is not even quite enough to secure a bench seat at the German NT.
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Re: Timo Werner

Postby #12 » Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:20 am

RedQueen wrote:Of course he isn't. But he's arguably better than Lewandowski was at his age. Remember Lewandowski being the bench warmer behind Barrios in his first Dortmund season? That was 2010/11. Lewy was 22 back then.


Was just pointing it out cause of that tweet...
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Re: Timo Werner

Postby Manchu » Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:20 am

#12 wrote:And he’s not yet world class...

That's perhaps a little harsh. In terms of goalimpact peak, he's basically in the lowest tier of world class talents, and plenty of players with a projected goalimpact peak of about 150 at 21 turn out to be absolute world class(i.e. good enough to start for us), it's just much less likely that they will turn out that good than it would be if they had a peak of 160 or 170. "Talents" with very little prospect of every being good enough to start for us have graphs like this:

Can't see tweet? Click here!
Gnabry, a lesson about how a player can score a lot of goals and still be terrible.

Can't see tweet? Click here!
Behold, the "German Messi," or a lesson about how a player can be a great dribbler and still be terrible.

Still, I do have to agree with you on something: if we want to judge just based on goalimpact, Timo Werner is someone who would be worth paying 15 or 20 million euros for but not 80 or 100 million.

FCB12Forever wrote:
That is *surprisingly low. IIRC it's lower than some players at RBL who lacked spotlight, e.g. Kevin Kampl and Stefan Ilsanker. And the graph does not show world-class potential: a peak GI of ~150 is not even quite enough to secure a bench seat at the German NT.

Well, the basic problem is that he didn't develop well at Stuttgart. He was an absolutely top talent at 17. And for the NT it depends heavily on position. The NT still doesn't have a World-class LB and striker selection is still quite limited.

Also, it is quite clear that he has some major limitations: not capable of holdup play, not capable of as aerial target so the other team doesn't have to worry so much about allowing crosses*, average at buildup play, and not that incredible at goalpoaching. Moreover, he is a small, pacey striker, the type that generally focuses on getting behind the opponent's line an who often open up a lot space by stretching the backline, but for me he doesn't really have the sense of timing and situational awareness that allows players like Mario Gomez, Filippo Inzaghi, and Theo Walcott to slip behind the backlines of opponents while avoiding offsides.

Obviously, there are a lot of things he is good at(he did score 21 goals last season), but they tend to revolve around counterattacking and pressing, which might mean he's not really the right fit for Bayern or the NT.

*this is incidentally why I prefer both Gomez and Wagner over him for the National team. When you have Kimmich, Muller, and Ozil in your starting lineup, it is really a waste not to play a forward who is good scoring off of aerial crosses.
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Re: Timo Werner

Postby tflags » Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:07 am

I think Timo is going to do quite well, but is it me or do I feel Stindl is an all around better player?
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Re: Timo Werner

Postby #12 » Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:05 pm

Manchu wrote:
#12 wrote:And he’s not yet world class...

That's perhaps a little harsh. In terms of goalimpact peak, he's basically in the lowest tier of world class talents, and plenty of players with a projected goalimpact peak of about 150 at 21 turn out to be absolute world class(i.e. good enough to start for us), it's just much less likely that they will turn out that good than it would be if they had a peak of 160 or 170. "Talents" with very little prospect of every being good enough to start for us have graphs like this:

Can't see tweet? Click here!
Gnabry, a lesson about how a player can score a lot of goals and still be terrible.

Can't see tweet? Click here!
Behold, the "German Messi," or a lesson about how a player can be a great dribbler and still be terrible.

Still, I do have to agree with you on something: if we want to judge just based on goalimpact, Timo Werner is someone who would be worth paying 15 or 20 million euros for but not 80 or 100 million.

FCB12Forever wrote:
That is *surprisingly low. IIRC it's lower than some players at RBL who lacked spotlight, e.g. Kevin Kampl and Stefan Ilsanker. And the graph does not show world-class potential: a peak GI of ~150 is not even quite enough to secure a bench seat at the German NT.

Well, the basic problem is that he didn't develop well at Stuttgart. He was an absolutely top talent at 17. And for the NT it depends heavily on position. The NT still doesn't have a World-class LB and striker selection is still quite limited.

Also, it is quite clear that he has some major limitations: not capable of holdup play, not capable of as aerial target so the other team doesn't have to worry so much about allowing crosses*, average at buildup play, and not that incredible at goalpoaching. Moreover, he is a small, pacey striker, the type that generally focuses on getting behind the opponent's line an who often open up a lot space by stretching the backline, but for me he doesn't really have the sense of timing and situational awareness that allows players like Mario Gomez, Filippo Inzaghi, and Theo Walcott to slip behind the backlines of opponents while avoiding offsides.

Obviously, there are a lot of things he is good at(he did score 21 goals last season), but they tend to revolve around counterattacking and pressing, which might mean he's not really the right fit for Bayern or the NT.

*this is incidentally why I prefer both Gomez and Wagner over him for the National team. When you have Kimmich, Muller, and Ozil in your starting lineup, it is really a waste not to play a forward who is good scoring off of aerial crosses.


Well, guess who was most disappointed on here when hearing about Gnabry...?!
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Re: Timo Werner

Postby PunkCapitalist » Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:08 pm

#12 wrote:
Manchu wrote:
#12 wrote:And he’s not yet world class...

That's perhaps a little harsh. In terms of goalimpact peak, he's basically in the lowest tier of world class talents, and plenty of players with a projected goalimpact peak of about 150 at 21 turn out to be absolute world class(i.e. good enough to start for us), it's just much less likely that they will turn out that good than it would be if they had a peak of 160 or 170. "Talents" with very little prospect of every being good enough to start for us have graphs like this:

Can't see tweet? Click here!
Gnabry, a lesson about how a player can score a lot of goals and still be terrible.

Can't see tweet? Click here!
Behold, the "German Messi," or a lesson about how a player can be a great dribbler and still be terrible.

Still, I do have to agree with you on something: if we want to judge just based on goalimpact, Timo Werner is someone who would be worth paying 15 or 20 million euros for but not 80 or 100 million.

FCB12Forever wrote:
That is *surprisingly low. IIRC it's lower than some players at RBL who lacked spotlight, e.g. Kevin Kampl and Stefan Ilsanker. And the graph does not show world-class potential: a peak GI of ~150 is not even quite enough to secure a bench seat at the German NT.

Well, the basic problem is that he didn't develop well at Stuttgart. He was an absolutely top talent at 17. And for the NT it depends heavily on position. The NT still doesn't have a World-class LB and striker selection is still quite limited.

Also, it is quite clear that he has some major limitations: not capable of holdup play, not capable of as aerial target so the other team doesn't have to worry so much about allowing crosses*, average at buildup play, and not that incredible at goalpoaching. Moreover, he is a small, pacey striker, the type that generally focuses on getting behind the opponent's line an who often open up a lot space by stretching the backline, but for me he doesn't really have the sense of timing and situational awareness that allows players like Mario Gomez, Filippo Inzaghi, and Theo Walcott to slip behind the backlines of opponents while avoiding offsides.

Obviously, there are a lot of things he is good at(he did score 21 goals last season), but they tend to revolve around counterattacking and pressing, which might mean he's not really the right fit for Bayern or the NT.

*this is incidentally why I prefer both Gomez and Wagner over him for the National team. When you have Kimmich, Muller, and Ozil in your starting lineup, it is really a waste not to play a forward who is good scoring off of aerial crosses.


Well, guess who was most disappointed on here when hearing about Gnabry...?!
Me.

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Re: Timo Werner

Postby #12 » Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:33 pm

Nope, you’re among the runners up
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