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Thiago Alcântara [Thiago Alcântara do Nascimento]

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Re: Thiago Alcântara [Thiago Alcântara do Nascimento]

Postby Bentonomo » Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:25 pm

Verres wrote:I agree with MUTU. We should be adults enough to admit that Kroos is at least for now better player than Thiago. Saying otherwise is I feel a very subjective perspective of a fan. Or transfermarkt ratings have been broken because Kroos is valued twice as much as Thiago. Somebody should do something about that.
I can't praise Kroos for his defensive abilities and skills very much, but I think his defensive awarness is still better than that of Thiago. Proof? You can see his defensive abilities against Saul. After failling to recuperate the ball from Saul he just raised the hands in the air (like Boa against Italy) and let him get away with it. You just don't do that. It happened this year again with Choupo Moting. Lets admit Kroos would not get owned like that.
Furthermore he is inconsistent. I expected him to become a great midfielder, but he has not lived up to the hype and his sallary. All you can say in his defense is that injuries stalled his progress. As I said, I don't like his defensive contribution and it's not like his offensive game is that good you can overlook his flaws. Btw,I think Kroos is better ofensively too. Thiago never had a streak of games like Kroos did in wc 2014 or euro 2016, where he was one of the best cm of the tournament (except in u21). Thiago often uses his skills and tricks to no effect when a simpler solution is available, sometimes he even loses the ball because of his flashy skills.

I also think we have too many midfielders. I hope we don't renew Alonso, his place is in MLS. I also hope we sell Thiago. We would be left with Martinez, Vidal, Kimmich and Sanches, all top of the crops, and all more effective and reliable than Thiago. I expect three things from all of our midfielders: toughness, effectivenes and reliabilitty. Thiago even after three years is not very good in any of the above categories (on a side note I don't rate Fabregas that high either as most of you probably are). We have better alternatives in deeper positions. If we play him against a serrious competition, we have to field three man midfield like with Kroos in RM, which means that with Mullendowski we can play only one winger, which is a no show with the abundance of wingers in our team. If we really want to play with three in the midfield in the future, we should go for someone more perspective like Goretzka.

I know almost all of you look at him emotionally. At the end football is a business. He is not one of our core players. And being a player who gives his all for his team on a consistent basis doesn't make it enough in my book. Also saying that if his last name was Alcaschweiger would make us all praise him, is way off. Martinez ismy second favorite player and he is spanish.


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Re: Thiago Alcântara [Thiago Alcântara do Nascimento]

Postby tflags » Thu Sep 15, 2016 9:12 pm

Yeah, heck of a game Kross had yesterday . . . :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Thiago Alcântara [Thiago Alcântara do Nascimento]

Postby pyrasur » Thu Sep 15, 2016 9:30 pm

Kroos is a good player but he's a choker in big moments. That's a fact, regardless of my red glasses. I will never want him back regardless of how good he ever gets, simply because he does not have the character that belongs at Bayern. Best of luck to him at his other club until he comes against us. Apart from that I really don't care about Kroos because I not one of those to care more about the German national team than Bayern.

Is Thiago inconsistent? Maybe. IDGAF because the guy has talent and is passionate. That's enough for me as a Bayern fan. If others want to sell a character like that regardless of the loyalty and effort Thiago shows, that's up to them.
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Re: Thiago Alcântara [Thiago Alcântara do Nascimento]

Postby aterford » Fri Sep 16, 2016 12:42 am

Verres wrote:I can't praise Kroos for his defensive abilities and skills very much, but I think his defensive awarness is still better than that of Thiago. Proof? You can see his defensive abilities against Saul. After failling to recuperate the ball from Saul he just raised the hands in the air (like Boa against Italy) and let him get away with it. You just don't do that. It happened this year again with Choupo Moting. Lets admit Kroos would not get owned like that.
Furthermore he is inconsistent. I expected him to become a great midfielder, but he has not lived up to the hype and his sallary. All you can say in his defense is that injuries stalled his progress. As I said, I don't like his defensive contribution and it's not like his offensive game is that good you can overlook his flaws.
....He is not one of our core players.


First off, Thiago is pretty consistently one of our leaders in tackles and stats show that he's one of our best midfielders when it comes to winning the ball back and in defensive contribution overall. Pointing out one play (Where GREAT defensive players like Boateng got made to look like fools, too) doesn't really prove anything. Kroos has got "owned" plenty of times, you're just not looking for that.

I don't really know why people here are so convinced that he's inconsistent, either. Even on his off days he's still FAR above average and a great midfielder even when he's down. When he's on top of his game he's absolute world class. Müller has his off days (both legs vs Atleti, anyone) but I sure don't see him getting called inconsistent. Xabi, Boateng, Lahm, Alaba, Lewy, Costa, etc all have had games where they've went totally invisible and it's not that uncommon. Let's not act like a 'bad' game here or there is enough to give a player the label of being inconsistent.

Finally, Bayern has shown a very, very high level of commitment to Thiago. Some of this might relate to trying to get Pep to stay, but in whatever case it's pretty clear that Bayern's brass feels he is valuable to this team.
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Re: Thiago Alcântara [Thiago Alcântara do Nascimento]

Postby PunkCapitalist » Fri Sep 16, 2016 12:50 am

aterford wrote:
Verres wrote:I can't praise Kroos for his defensive abilities and skills very much, but I think his defensive awarness is still better than that of Thiago. Proof? You can see his defensive abilities against Saul. After failling to recuperate the ball from Saul he just raised the hands in the air (like Boa against Italy) and let him get away with it. You just don't do that. It happened this year again with Choupo Moting. Lets admit Kroos would not get owned like that.
Furthermore he is inconsistent. I expected him to become a great midfielder, but he has not lived up to the hype and his sallary. All you can say in his defense is that injuries stalled his progress. As I said, I don't like his defensive contribution and it's not like his offensive game is that good you can overlook his flaws.
....He is not one of our core players.


First off, Thiago is pretty consistently one of our leaders in tackles and stats show that he's one of our best midfielders when it comes to winning the ball back and in defensive contribution overall. Pointing out one play (Where GREAT defensive players like Boateng got made to look like fools, too) doesn't really prove anything. Kroos has got "owned" plenty of times, you're just not looking for that.

I don't really know why people here are so convinced that he's inconsistent, either. Even on his off days he's still FAR above average and a great midfielder even when he's down. When he's on top of his game he's absolute world class. Müller has his off days (both legs vs Atleti, anyone) but I sure don't see him getting called inconsistent. Xabi, Boateng, Lahm, Alaba, Lewy, Costa, etc all have had games where they've went totally invisible and it's not that uncommon. Let's not act like a 'bad' game here or there is enough to give a player the label of being inconsistent.

Finally, Bayern has shown a very, very high level of commitment to Thiago. Some of this might relate to trying to get Pep to stay, but in whatever case it's pretty clear that Bayern's brass feels he is valuable to this team.

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Re: Thiago Alcântara [Thiago Alcântara do Nascimento]

Postby quaazi » Fri Sep 16, 2016 7:45 am

pyrasur wrote:Kroos is a good player but he's a choker in big moments. That's a fact, regardless of my red glasses. I will never want him back regardless of how good he ever gets, simply because he does not have the character that belongs at Bayern. Best of luck to him at his other club until he comes against us. Apart from that I really don't care about Kroos because I not one of those to care more about the German national team than Bayern.

Is Thiago inconsistent? Maybe. IDGAF because the guy has talent and is passionate. That's enough for me as a Bayern fan. If others want to sell a character like that regardless of the loyalty and effort Thiago shows, that's up to them.

I remember I first gave up on Kroos during the 5-2 drubbing at Berlin a week before the CL final. Where during a Dortmund counter he just lost 10-15 metres on Schweini despite starting at the same level on the pitch, directly leading to a Dortmund goal through his laziness at a fvcking Pokal final! His pussyfootedness a week later cemented my opinion of him, and our success since Juve 2013 only reinforced that belief. I had high hopes that he'd develop under Guardiola, if anyone, instead he developed an inflated opinion of himself.

The point being, you'll never see this shit with Thiago. The dude works his socks off on the pitch, it's a delight to watch. There's this ridiculous misconception going around that because he has a futsal player's technique, he must be lazy or lethargic. Defensively, he's all Kroos wishes he could be. In Toni's case, when we talk that he is a better player, we're talking about his metronomic ability to dictate and keep possession. In all other regards I just don't see how he's any better than Thiago (who tends to lose balls due to his "adventurous" style at times).

And shit, that's not getting to his mentality as a big-game player. I can list his heroics against Stuttgart, Porto and Juventus off the top of my head...
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Re: Thiago Alcântara [Thiago Alcântara do Nascimento]

Postby quaazi » Fri Sep 16, 2016 7:49 am

And yes, I do think goal celebrations say a lot about a player. His and Müller's are my absolute favorites. :mrgreen:
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Re: Thiago Alcântara [Thiago Alcântara do Nascimento]

Postby Achilles » Fri Sep 16, 2016 8:09 am

aterford wrote:First off, Thiago is pretty consistently one of our leaders in tackles and stats show that he's one of our best midfielders when it comes to winning the ball back and in defensive contribution overall. Pointing out one play (Where GREAT defensive players like Boateng got made to look like fools, too) doesn't really prove anything. Kroos has got "owned" plenty of times, you're just not looking for that.

I don't really know why people here are so convinced that he's inconsistent, either. Even on his off days he's still FAR above average and a great midfielder even when he's down. When he's on top of his game he's absolute world class. Müller has his off days (both legs vs Atleti, anyone) but I sure don't see him getting called inconsistent. Xabi, Boateng, Lahm, Alaba, Lewy, Costa, etc all have had games where they've went totally invisible and it's not that uncommon. Let's not act like a 'bad' game here or there is enough to give a player the label of being inconsistent.

We're talking about a midfielder dear, 30 minutes off and your team goes home how can you compare him with a striker, a striker can miss 3 chances and score with the 4th still can be a hero. Are we really talking about Thiago consistency? What do you mean by consistency? Having more than 87% passing acurracy doesn't make you consistent overall when you are a ghost in the game. Modric is consistent, Schweini was consistent, Xavi & Seedorf where not Thiago. Consistency means that you bring your A game with you 8 to 10 games not occasionally. Sorry mate but Thiago at the moment doesn't do that and I criticize him because he is a world class talent but just can't boss game after game. It's not all about stats, you need to see the game yourself sometimes. We have seen what Thiago is capable of when he is in the top of his game and that's what we need.
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Re: Thiago Alcântara [Thiago Alcântara do Nascimento]

Postby MUTU » Fri Sep 16, 2016 8:30 am

Thiago's individual honours:

UEFA U-21 Championship Golden Player: 2013
UEFA U-21 Championship Silver Boot: 2013
UEFA U-21 Championship Team of the Tournament: 2013

(Basically nothing won after he joined Bayern, and all during a single tournament played at U21 level)

Kroos' individual honours:

UEFA European Under-17 Championship Golden Player: 2006
UEFA European Under-17 Championship Top Scorer: 2006
2007 FIFA U-17 World Cup Golden Ball
2007 FIFA U-17 World Cup Bronze Shoe
Fritz-Walter-Medal 2008 in Gold (Category U18)
kicker Bundesliga Team of the Season: 2009–10
kicker Bundesliga Team of the Season: 2011–12
FIFA World Cup All-Star Team: 2014*
FIFA World Cup Dream Team: 2014*
FIFA World Cup Most assists: 2014*
UEFA Champions League Team of the Season: 2013–14
UEFA Champions League Team of the Season: 2014–15*
UEFA Champions League Team of the Season: 2015–16*
Silbernes Lorbeerblatt: 2014*
UEFA Team of the Year: 2014*
FIFA/FIFPro World XI: 2014*
IFFHS World's Best Playmaker: 2014*
UEFA European Championship Team of the Tournament: 2016*

* won after leaving Bayern for Real Madrid.

I rest my case. Kroos has managed to be a key player for every professional club he's played for, while Thiago was never a key player at any club he's played for. Sure, he's had his moments at Bayern, especially around the time we played Juventus last season, but it was a peak in an otherwise rollercoaster of performances.

Yes, I still believe in Thiago and I still think he can make it but I feel his lack of physical 'presence' and long-range shooting skills, combined with injuries and inconsistency means he has a challenge.
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Re: Thiago Alcântara [Thiago Alcântara do Nascimento]

Postby Firefox1234 » Fri Sep 16, 2016 12:48 pm

I know how effective Kroos is as a player I can't deny that but his lack of heart similar to Ozil is the reason I can't fully respect players like that no matter how many awards they win. It's too obvious when you see midfielders like Schweinstiger and Vidal giving there all and being well rounded and Kroos and Ozil going through the motions. Kroos is a world class player but as an athlete I feel he is severely lacking and I see why KHR and the brass had no issue letting him go...
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Re: Thiago Alcântara [Thiago Alcântara do Nascimento]

Postby ottackon » Fri Sep 16, 2016 1:08 pm

Two great central midfielders, two different profiles.
The most important thing is that we have a fantastic midfield at Bayern right now, we're fine.
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Re: Thiago Alcântara [Thiago Alcântara do Nascimento]

Postby quaazi » Fri Sep 16, 2016 1:23 pm

MUTU wrote:Post about individual honours

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Re: Thiago Alcântara [Thiago Alcântara do Nascimento]

Postby quaazi » Fri Sep 16, 2016 1:31 pm

Also, for all the talk about Kroos' long range shooting skills, you do realize the guy has 4 goals in 103 games for Real, right? Admittedly he doesn't really take that many shots for Real anymore, but it's still a rather weird claim.
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Re: Thiago Alcântara [Thiago Alcântara do Nascimento]

Postby MUTU » Fri Sep 16, 2016 1:32 pm

Firefox1234 wrote:I know how effective Kroos is as a player I can't deny that but his lack of heart similar to Ozil is the reason I can't fully respect players like that no matter how many awards they win. It's too obvious when you see midfielders like Schweinstiger and Vidal giving there all and being well rounded and Kroos and Ozil going through the motions. Kroos is a world class player but as an athlete I feel he is severely lacking and I see why KHR and the brass had no issue letting him go...

Well, yes, players playing with heart are always more likable, but if we are talking about pure skill then it should play no issue.
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Re: Thiago Alcântara [Thiago Alcântara do Nascimento]

Postby tflags » Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:12 pm

MUTU wrote:(Basically nothing won after he joined Bayern, and all during a single tournament played at U21 level)


One of the problems from these infamous wikipedia copy/pastes is the lack of appreciation for the realities of the game trying to do a vís a vís via mouse and keyboard. People keep calling Thiago unreliable and a mixed performer. Sure, his style is not for everyone. After all, you can't expect all fans to actually play the game personally so they can appreciate what he does on the pitch.

So what exactly did Kroos did every single game vs Barza? Or Argentina back in Brazil 2014 final? A game where he handed Higuain the WC Trophy on a platter singlehandedly. OMG, he actually loses the ball? What about his performance vs Italy on that infamous Euro bow out in 2012? The games I watch from him actually make me rage as he stays there outside his own box expecting the ball to somehow bounce back so he can start a counter. It happened while he was at Bayern, it happens in Valencia, it happens in Sevilla.

So instead of criticizing a player who tbh I don't really care for why don't we ask ourselves what are those awards telling us? Could it be he was at the right time at the right place? Being part of the 'best team of the tournament' coming off from the cup winning team is nothing new. Thing is, it was Bastian, Boateng and Neuer as the lauded players; not Kroos.

Is he a bad player? Surely not. But I tend to notice he's not exactly everyone's cup of tea either. His best game ever by a country mile (Brazil 2014 WC vs . . . Brazil) was a tour the force. Thing is, his performance was on a par with Khedira's. What can be concluded regarding Kroos is the simple fact that he is a team level performer. When they play well, he shall follow suit. When they don't, he's invisible.

But please let us stop with the comparisons. And let us try to be a little bit fairer. Those personal achievements to Thiago are a hard misrepresentation of his actual performances. Lacking in that wikipedia list are his many UEFA MOTM awards. He won so in 2011's final AND 2013's final and tournament as well. (In 2011 he scored from a long range free kick, thank you very much.) The day he said hello to the CL (still @Barza) he gave (and won) a UEFA's MOTM performance. Now I would need to go and find all these awards so that I can fix what some English dude wrote (and missed) on his anglophone page.

Thing is, Kroos was extremely lucky not in his mentor (though he was Heynckes' playmaker) but rather in Uli making him Gustavo's (and Tymo's) replacement. My question is, MUTU, are you actually under the impression Kroos could have AT ANY TIME benched Iniesta or Xavi? Because that sure as hell was what Thiago was against during his development years. Your comment was extremely unfair, to say the least.

His performances vs Porto (publicly recognized by Bayern), Juve and a host of other teams were well beyond the team's level. And yet somehow they get dimished by some. Is football fair? Surely not. Is he the perfect player? Hardly. He could be a little faster tracking back. But he sure as hell plays better on the 10 than the 6 (5 for our SA members.) That is where his flair and creativity (and hoverboard) come into play.

Whoscored called him better than Messi. Fourfourtwo raved about him in 2014 AND 2015. Honigstein called him the most talented midfielder he had ever seen; a player who 'floated' past opponents with such elegance. Boateng called him the best player hew knew at Bayern.

But hell, you can read it all here, here or here.

But whatever you do, please read this first. It WILL tell you something more about a player than. . . Wikipedia. :P
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