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Robbery's successors

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Re: Robbery's successors

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:01 am

@aterford: the issue with Coman is that apart from the first few months, he's a far cry from Robbery level. He's decent, but it's one thing having him as a Ribery backup and another relying on him when even Robben is gone. Backups usually don't stay for very long, so if we have the opportunity to cash in on him we should take it, if not he's probably going to leave soon anyway. Not all players stay till retirement, even though we seem to have a good track record in that regard


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Re: Robbery's successors

Postby Achilles » Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:38 am

*Short-term
I have said in the past and stand behind it that I don't mind Douglas Costa staying(decent winger) as long as his alter ego is Robbery level if not then the downgrade is inevitable and we need patience to build on that something that our "almost" 30 CBs and Lewy don't have...
For example a Douglas/Sanchez(orHazardReusBale) duo would be a perfect match in everything.
I honestly think that the club must move quickly and sign a world class winger, our core is fantastic in perfect age and matured it's just that our offensive leaders will be done, we must not go into a complete re-build mode, we just need 1-2 big signings.
At the end of the day you can't replace a Ferrari with a Toyota, gets the job done but it's not the same, clearly.

*Long-term
Well this is like a playground, we can throw names all day, it's up to the board and I honestly trust them about that matter but even if we pull out "a Gotze" or "a Podolski" we can fix it. All the names that you guys mentioned are talented, they can play the position, they now the tricks but the development and the character is something else. I rate Ousmane Dembele as the best potential and Julian Brandt as the most efficient.Carrassco is a hell of a technical player but he has €80m release clause, I don't think he is a realistic target with that clause.
The big bet as it seems is Coman, I don't believe sooo much in this kid to be honest but he has the potential and gave us one promising season last year but it's meh... SO much work to be done with him if we sign him then next year he'll be 3 years in Munich when exactly he'll start to improve significantly? I honestly think that he needs a full-season loan to a Europa level team as a starter.
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Re: Robbery's successors

Postby aterford » Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:37 am

FCBayernMunchen wrote:@aterford: the issue with Coman is that apart from the first few months, he's a far cry from Robbery level. He's decent, but it's one thing having him as a Ribery backup and another relying on him when even Robben is gone. Backups usually don't stay for very long, so if we have the opportunity to cash in on him we should take it, if not he's probably going to leave soon anyway. Not all players stay till retirement, even though we seem to have a good track record in that regard


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Sure but I'm not sure that's a realistic expectation to set, either ("Robbery level").
At their peaks one could easily argue that Ribery and Robben have both been top-5 players in the world - Ribery being UEFA Best player in Europe and 3rd on Ballon d'Or (which many would say he should have won) - and when Robben is/was in top form he's as good as any player alive (4th place Ballon d'Or 2014).

Realistically, how many players out there are amongst the top 5 at their position that would be available for us? Guys like Messi, Cristiano, Neymar, Bale, etc are probably at or close to "peak Robbery". Sanchez and Hazard, maybe Griezmann--are close but I don't think there's anyone who'd say that they are as good as Ribery or Robben has been. The rest? Brandt, Draxler, Sane, Dembele, Silva, Gnabry, Carrasco, Mané, etc--all very talented players but we must admit they are a step down as well.

So my point is this. We can say that Coman/Costa are not quite to Ribery/Robben level. But the fact of the matter is that if we are ready to count them out for not being Robbery-level then in order to be consistent we must also exclude virtually all of the aforementioned.
We must be willing to concede that the odds of getting another Ribery/Robben type player are not great. And that's okay. Will Madrid find another Cristiano? Will Barcelona find another Messi? Probably not any time soon! But they will still be okay. Such is the same for Bayern, IMO. I rate Robben and Ribery right up there with Messi and Cristiano. Once-in-a-generation type players. It may be another decade before we get even ONE winger of Robben/Ribery quality again, and we will be okay (to have both at the same time has frankly been an embarrassment of riches for us).
Long story short, it's okay to accept that whoever is on our wings for the foreseeable future might not be quite up to the lofty standards that Robben/Ribery set and we will still be okay.
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Re: Robbery's successors

Postby aterford » Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:49 am

Achilles wrote:*Short-term
I have said in the past and stand behind it that I don't mind Douglas Costa staying(decent winger) as long as his alter ego is Robbery level if not then the downgrade is inevitable and we need patience to build on that something that our "almost" 30 CBs and Lewy don't have...
For example a Douglas/Sanchez(orHazardReusBale) duo would be a perfect match in everything.
I honestly think that the club must move quickly and sign a world class winger, our core is fantastic in perfect age and matured it's just that our offensive leaders will be done, we must not go into a complete re-build mode, we just need 1-2 big signings.
At the end of the day you can't replace a Ferrari with a Toyota, gets the job done but it's not the same, clearly.

*Long-term
Well this is like a playground, we can throw names all day, it's up to the board and I honestly trust them about that matter but even if we pull out "a Gotze" or "a Podolski" we can fix it. All the names that you guys mentioned are talented, they can play the position, they now the tricks but the development and the character is something else. I rate Ousmane Dembele as the best potential and Julian Brandt as the most efficient.Carrassco is a hell of a technical player but he has €80m release clause, I don't think he is a realistic target with that clause.
The big bet as it seems is Coman, I don't believe sooo much in this kid to be honest but he has the potential and gave us one promising season last year but it's meh... SO much work to be done with him if we sign him then next year he'll be 3 years in Munich when exactly he'll start to improve significantly? I honestly think that he needs a full-season loan to a Europa level team as a starter.


I think you are on the right track but IMO some of the problem is that we are expecting to replace a couple of Bugattis (Robbery) with another pair of Buggattis and that's just not that feasible I think. But to replace a pair of Bugattis with a couple of Ferrarris or Lamborghinis is manageable, haha :D

I do think one or two short-term signings could be beneficial going forward but honestly it seems we are right on the cusp of a transitional period where the "old guard" of the Van Gaal/Heynckes/Hitzfield classes are nearly all gone which will represent a change from a very significant era in our club's history.
That being said I think a player like Sanchez would be a great fit but my worry is that he is more of a 'band aid' type solution and in a couple of seasons we'd be back in the same boat looking for a new winger again.
As you mentioned Brandt, Carrasco, and Dembele all would be great options but right now I feel that only Brandt is really that accessible. BvB won't want to sell Dembele this soon (and esp. not to us) and Dembele has said many a time that he dreams of playing for Barca. By the time BvB is willing to cash in, I'm not sure he'll be able to resist a potential Barca offer (as by then MSN may be apart). As you also said Carrasco has a huge release clause (conflicting reports as I've even heard up to €100m) and I just simply don't see that happening (not that I would be opposed).

Generally I have been in Costa's corner but the fact of the matter is that he's right now hitting the peak of his career and I'm not sure it gets much better from here. I still like Costa and think he could be more than serviceable for us for a few more seasons but at the same time as I've said in other threads (or maybe here, haha) if some Chinese club or EPL wants to pay €60m for him then I will help pack his bags.
Coman for me just needs minutes. IMO if Robben got hurt or something and Coman was forced into a consistent starting role I think he would surprise many. I also think it's important to remember he is only 20. It's easy to look at how he's played for Bayern, PSG, Juve, whatever, and expect him to be better or more mature or w/e but as it stands it's way, way, WAY too early to declare and sort of verdict on him. I know many here (and on other Bayern sites) are quite harsh on him but if we're being objective, virtually every pundit and sports media organization still rates Coman as one of the top youngsters in all of world football today (Just this past year he was voted 3rd for Europe's "Golden Boy"). And of course he has had injuries to deal with as well, which has harmed his form. But I think it's a bit of recency bias to only look at his latest showings and ignore how he looked amazing when he was playing last season. Let's not forget that our wingers have had a bit of trouble adapting to Carlo's tactics as well, and this is especially tough on the younger guys. At any rate, €21m for the purchase fee is a STEAL in today's market so even if we have no desire to keep him long term it'd be foolish to not activate the clause.
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Re: Robbery's successors

Postby Dumbledore7 » Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:01 am

Let's talk about the best wingers in the world. Using the most traditional (but flawed) definition of world class being Top 5 in the position.

LW:
1. Ronaldo
2. Neymar
3. Hazard
4. Ribery
5. Reus
6. Sanchez (he probably belongs more on a CF list nowadays)
7. Douglas Costa
8. Coutinho
9. Carrasco
10. Insigne

RW:
1. Messi
2. Bale
3. Robben
4. Di Maria
5. Dembélé
6. Mkhitaryan
7. Willian
8. Sterling
9. Silva
10. Mane

I doubt the Robbery transition can be smooth at all. By quality alone there are only a few who can match them even today. On top of that we would need Kalle out to spend anywhere close to the required investments for these players. Players outside these lists like Sané and Lemar are probably out of our stinginess range as well. The only realistic name I can think of is Brandt, but then again his profile is not precisely what we need. Puts to perspective how much we need Coman to deliver.
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Re: Robbery's successors

Postby Coman » Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:03 am

El Shaarawy, Origi, Bojan Krkic, Podolski, Anderson, Walcott.

They finished 2nd and 3rd of the Golden Boy too.

Alaba never was in the top 3 between 2011 and 2013.
Bayern 3-3-3-1 build-up under Heynckes :
Neuer - Boateng Hummels Thiago - Kimmich Vidal Alaba - Robben Müller James - Lewandowski
Neuer- Boateng Vidal Hummels- Kimmich Martinez Alaba- Robben James Ribéry- Lewandowski
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Re: Robbery's successors

Postby aterford » Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:51 am

Coman wrote:El Shaarawy, Origi, Bojan Krkic, Podolski, Anderson, Walcott.

They finished 2nd and 3rd of the Golden Boy too.

Alaba never was in the top 3 between 2011 and 2013.


Yep, you're right, it's totally meaningless. Nevermind that Messi, Aguero, Fabregas, Pogba, etc all won it. Totally meaningless.

You must be trolling. What a joke.
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Re: Robbery's successors

Postby bastos80 » Mon Feb 27, 2017 12:23 pm

Costa and Coman ideally.
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Re: Robbery's successors

Postby PunkCapitalist » Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:05 pm

nnemani92 wrote:I think Coman can be a good long term fix at RW provided he stays fit. For LW I think getting Sanchez for now makes the most sense provided he can keep his wage demands reasonable as in he can't just come in and ask to be paid equal to Lewandowski. We did the something similar with Götze and he was probably the only screwed up high profile Bayern signing in recent memory. Not saying that his high wages had anything to do with his performance, just that he should only have been paid that kind of money if he actually did well at the club.If Sanchez does well I'm okay with his contract being renegotiated at a later date, say two years or a year and half later. Although I do think he should be able to slot in without much difficulty. With the younger folks none of the valuations makes sense to me.

Alexis can absolutely come in an earn Lewy salary. He is WC proven player. Götze wasn't as proven and was too young, he shouldn't have gotten that salary, but Alexis definitely does deserve it.

Also, Dumbledore: i think you're seriously overestimating Ribery's quality nowadays. No way he should be that high. Alexis should also be much higher.

Overall I think the inverted/traditional winger debate is very important. I don't think we should play Coman on the RW and Costa on the LW. It's just the wrong foot to do useful stuff...

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Re: Robbery's successors

Postby ramsej84 » Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:57 pm

Here is one.
https://twitter.com/iMiaSanMia/status/8 ... 9807330304

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Re: Robbery's successors

Postby Alduin » Tue Feb 28, 2017 1:48 am

I agree with everyone that says that probably almost any signing would be a downgrade from Robbéry but we can seriously push for a World Class Player signing, is not like we are poor or something and the great majority of players would sign for us even if they say on interviews that they would like to play for Real Madrid or Barcelona. Every player knows Bayern is always a favorite to win major trophies every year and almost all the players want to win titles and of course wearing a shirt on the field is an honor that most of the players would die for at the end of the day.
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Re: Robbery's successors

Postby aterford » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:53 am

Alduin wrote:I agree with everyone that says that probably almost any signing would be a downgrade from Robbéry but we can seriously push for a World Class Player signing, is not like we are poor or something and the great majority of players would sign for us even if they say on interviews that they would like to play for Real Madrid or Barcelona. Every player knows Bayern is always a favorite to win major trophies every year and almost all the players want to win titles and of course wearing a shirt on the field is an honor that most of the players would die for at the end of the day.


Sure, but you must ask two questions.
1. Which world-class wingers are (realistically) available?
2. Will Bayern break their transfer record to sign them?

There are a handful of guys out there who are truly WC wingers. But are we going to spend €60, €70, €80m on any one of them? I have serious doubts there. Not saying I wouldn't support such a move, but I'd be shocked if the club did it.
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Re: Robbery's successors

Postby German-American » Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:33 am

If we want a great team, we can't go for names. It will cause to many problems with egos clashing like at Barca when some players were annoyed that MNS were having dinners together. Our board knows what the team needs better than anyone on this form. Yes having a big name player would be sweet, but i am fully confident that they will sign the right player, not the most skilled player.
Remember the miracle on ice? Take that for example, obviously we need good players and it is hard not to fantasize about the best individual players, but team chemistry is the most important part of a team. My best friends dad player professional football in Denmark, he ended very early due to injury, but he was known for having insane intelligence about the game. He always says that he loves watching Bayern and Germany play because EVERY player knows where all the players are....expect when Thiago passed to Santa :D
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Re: Robbery's successors

Postby Thiagoalcantara » Tue Feb 28, 2017 7:34 am

Costa is pretty good still...

Last season, I say he was bayerns best player in the first half of the season and best player in Europe too.

He's still the only winger that can cross and he's the fastest with the ball and without it. His end product is average, but right now, Costa is Bayern's best winger imo or Robben vs Costa.
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Re: Robbery's successors

Postby aterford » Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:28 am

Thiagoalcantara wrote:Costa is pretty good still...

Last season, I say he was bayerns best player in the first half of the season and best player in Europe too.

He's still the only winger that can cross and he's the fastest with the ball and without it. His end product is average, but right now, Costa is Bayern's best winger imo or Robben vs Costa.


I would mostly agree with this, my only concern is that Costa is already 26 and that's normally the 'prime' of most players' careers. So I'm not sure we will see much improvement from here on out, which kinda worries me. But, he may prove me wrong. If Costa could just improve his finishing I think he would be a fantastic player overall. And if/when Ribery/Robben leave and he's potentially the starter I think he could see some improvement there too.
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