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Niklas Süle

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Re: Niklas Süle

Postby MUTU » Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:13 pm

Achilles wrote:Problem with the tall defenders or athletes is that they lack explosiveness, even for the fastest man alive is a problem compared to his opponents and for CBs in football explosiveness(in high line) is a deadly weakness.

Bolt has the same height as Sule 8)

The "fastest man alive", Bolt, has only really been tested in a straight line. I'm pretty sure that if he would play football, his change of direction would not match some of the fastest footballers around. His body is built to run straight. A footballer's has different demands.
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Re: Niklas Süle

Postby MUTU » Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:18 pm

tflags wrote:
MUTU wrote:Top speed has nothing to do with acceleration and agility. The tendency is that the taller the person, the slower the acceleration and agility.


Hardly the case. Acceleration (taken from sprint runners) has been scientifically attributed to a muscles inside the lower part of the body which with the proper development can make you seconds faster at short distances. Then there's phsycological factors and trainning methods which vary from individual to individual. Bolt, a 1.95m record holder, is hardly a case that would support your theory. Along with him, there are many Jamaican runners to further confirm this. Sorry, but muscle density in taller runners compensate for their height and weight in many cases so speed can't be attributed to height.

As per my previous post, you should not compare 100m/200m runners to footballers. The demands are very, very different. Pretty sure that in a slalom without a ball, Cristiano Ronaldo (for example) would easily beat Bolt. How often does a central defender need to run in a straight line? Acceleration and agility are what he needs. Acceleration is actually Bolt's "weakness" anyway.
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Re: Niklas Süle

Postby Dumbledore7 » Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:20 pm

This is one of the most pointless discussions I've ever seen here (including Pep arguments). Who cares about his height or speed or whatever else? Süle is a great CB and that's why Bayern spent the money.

As if agility matters when you're trying to stop Messi, Reus, Bale. Defending is strictly all about positioning and timing, which have to do with the player's brain but can also be coached. Ask professional football players if anything else matters. To hell with acceleration and agility.
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Re: Niklas Süle

Postby MUTU » Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:20 pm

Let's try something different. Try to compile a list of the 20 fastest footballers ever with in-game recorded speed. I bet none of them are taller than 1.90m
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Re: Niklas Süle

Postby MUTU » Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:22 pm

Dumbledore7 wrote:As if agility matters when you're trying to stop Messi, Reus, Bale.

Agree to disagree. In my opinion, agility is the MOST IMPORTANT attribute for stopping these players. Do I need to call up replays of Milito leaving Van Buyten for dead because of his extremely poor agility and change of direction? Van Buyten was well positioned because Milito was running right at him, then went one direction, then another, then again, and Van Buyten was miles behind, and his height has all to do with it because it is very difficult for a tall guy to change direction quickly the way a shorter guy can.
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Re: Niklas Süle

Postby tflags » Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:28 pm

MUTU wrote:As per my previous post, you should not compare 100m/200m runners to footballers. The demands are very, very different. Pretty sure that in a slalom without a ball, Cristiano Ronaldo (for example) would easily beat Bolt. How often does a central defender need to run in a straight line? Acceleration and agility are what he needs. Acceleration is actually Bolt's "weakness" anyway.


Fine, so now we are changing the discussion from height vs speed to acceleration vs height to slalom vs height. :lol:
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Re: Niklas Süle

Postby Dumbledore7 » Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:29 pm

MUTU wrote:
Dumbledore7 wrote:As if agility matters when you're trying to stop Messi, Reus, Bale.

Agree to disagree. In my opinion, agility is the MOST IMPORTANT attribute for stopping these players. Do I need to call up replays of Milito leaving Van Buyten for dead because of his extremely poor agility and change of direction? Van Buyten was well positioned because Milito was running right at him, then went one direction, then another, then again, and Van Buyten was miles behind, and his height has all to do with it because it is very difficult for a tall guy to change direction quickly the way a shorter guy can.


You say poor agility and change of direction, I say poor positioning and timing. One well-timed tackle and Milito's gone. That sort of thing was never a problem for Vidic, Ferdinand, Stam and other defenders. Also you're also implying a correlation between height and speed for the shorter defenders - I can't speak about all the defenders you listed, but I'm sure as hell I don't remember Puyol, Cannavaro, Nesta and Terry ever being quick on the turn. Puyol is one of the clunkiest players I've seen but he's mastered his tackling. It's all in the brain.
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Re: Niklas Süle

Postby MUTU » Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:34 pm

tflags wrote:
MUTU wrote:As per my previous post, you should not compare 100m/200m runners to footballers. The demands are very, very different. Pretty sure that in a slalom without a ball, Cristiano Ronaldo (for example) would easily beat Bolt. How often does a central defender need to run in a straight line? Acceleration and agility are what he needs. Acceleration is actually Bolt's "weakness" anyway.


Fine, so now we are changing the discussion from height vs speed to acceleration vs height to slalom vs height. :lol:

If you look at my posts carefully, you will see that I used the word "speed" replying to others who had used the word. I only mentioned agility and acceleration.
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Re: Niklas Süle

Postby MUTU » Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:39 pm

Dumbledore7 wrote:
MUTU wrote:
Dumbledore7 wrote:As if agility matters when you're trying to stop Messi, Reus, Bale.

Agree to disagree. In my opinion, agility is the MOST IMPORTANT attribute for stopping these players. Do I need to call up replays of Milito leaving Van Buyten for dead because of his extremely poor agility and change of direction? Van Buyten was well positioned because Milito was running right at him, then went one direction, then another, then again, and Van Buyten was miles behind, and his height has all to do with it because it is very difficult for a tall guy to change direction quickly the way a shorter guy can.


You say poor agility and change of direction, I say poor positioning and timing. One well-timed tackle and Milito's gone. That sort of thing was never a problem for Vidic, Ferdinand, Stam and other defenders. Also you're also implying a correlation between height and speed for the shorter defenders - I can't speak about all the defenders you listed, but I'm sure as hell I don't remember Puyol, Cannavaro, Nesta and Terry ever being quick on the turn. Puyol is one of the clunkiest players I've seen but he's mastered his tackling. It's all in the brain.

Ferdinand: 1.89m
Vidic: 1.90m
Stam: 1.91m
Süle: 1.95m

And if you honestly think Puyol was "clunky" but Stam not, I think that both of us need to look at replays of these players because one of us must be terribly wrong.

Also regarding Milito vs Van Buyten, I don't want to look at the painful replays again but I don't remember Van Buyten being close enough to be able to tackle. He was just so slow to turn that he was never really close.
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Re: Niklas Süle

Postby ramsej84 » Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:45 pm

But I am with dumble.... defenders need brains, they have to read the game in order to anticipate an opponent move.
Quickness is a plus.

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Re: Niklas Süle

Postby MUTU » Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:52 pm

ramsej84 wrote:But I am with dumble.... defenders need brains, they have to read the game in order to anticipate an opponent move.
Quickness is a plus.

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Anticipation involves a lot of guesswork; it's not an infallible science. Anticipation and brains (i.e. quickness to react) help limit agility issues, but with some agile attackers, they are often not enough. Sometimes you can't tell if the attacker will go to the left or to the right. You can simply assume he will go to the left (and maybe he'd go to the right and you'd be owned), or you can wait until you have a pretty good idea if he went to the left or right and follow, but then you'd need to be very agile, otherwise you can't keep up with him (Van Buyten vs Milito). In order to be a great defender, you need both brains and agility. If you lack in either, you can never be truly great unless you have a team built around you that protects you well against the 1on1s.
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Re: Niklas Süle

Postby Achilles » Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:54 pm

Some of you must agree that you.. disagree :)

Defending is an art, I think we all agree to that and we have a living legend to our team that proves me right, Lahm!
He is fast but not that fast, he doesnt have an athletitc body,he is very short, no muscles or brute force nor dynamic on the ball but he still manages to outplay any winger,attacker or footballer he was against over 10 years = artist!
Another thing I suppose we agree is that defense is a team effort nothing compared to attacking, a back four by Lahm,Nesta,Terry,Carlos running like headless chickens while they have in front of them a midfield by u-19 players will look terrible.
Sergio Ramos is fast & athletic like hell still every year in many occasions he got humiliated on 1v1 or with red cards. Hummels is x2 slower than Ramos and you can hardly make a lowlight top-10 video of him... He plays with his mind just like Lahm.

Sule is a defender that doesn't relies extremenly on his strength and height, he is a smart guy & very good tactically at his 21. Imagine what will happen in an enviroment with Ancelotti,Hummels,Lahm,Boateng,Alaba and Germany. Playing everyday in training against our attackers and Muller,Lewandowski you can't become worse only better, how much better? Is up to Sule and his talent. Speed doesn't play a role for this guy and he ain't slow as Alonso... 8)
Tactics also will play a role and our tactics differ to Hoffe's that's for sure.
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Re: Niklas Süle

Postby Dumbledore7 » Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:56 pm

MUTU wrote:And if you honestly think Puyol was "clunky" but Stam not, I think that both of us need to look at replays of these players because one of us must be terribly wrong.


We won't need to because I never mentioned that Stam is not clunky :wink:, by clunky I mean not agile. Puyol is not one of the greatest defenders ever because he's more agile than Stam, but because of his intelligence and tackling technique are far superior.

MUTU wrote:Also regarding Milito vs Van Buyten, I don't want to look at the painful replays again but I don't remember Van Buyten being close enough to be able to tackle. He was just so slow to turn that he was never really close.


Only supports my point. Positioning and timing. Defensive tactics. Coaching. Intelligence.
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Re: Niklas Süle

Postby Dumbledore7 » Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:57 pm

MUTU wrote:Sometimes you can't tell if the attacker will go to the left or to the right


The best defender would've murdered the attacker before he could turn. Boateng WC14 final.

Edit: And also I'd rather my defenders be smart enough to make interceptions before plays are built.
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Re: Niklas Süle

Postby MUTU » Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:03 pm

Achilles wrote:Sule is a defender that doesn't relies extremenly on his strength and height, he is a smart guy & very good tactically at his 21. Imagine what will happen in an enviroment with Ancelotti,Hummels,Lahm,Boateng,Alaba and Germany. Playing everyday in training against our attackers and Muller,Lewandowski you can't become worse only better, how much better? Is up to Sule and his talent. Speed doesn't play a role for this guy and he ain't slow as Alonso... 8)

This is what worries me. He is 21 and he's already slow. When he's Alonso age, he'd probably be slowe... oh, wait, I mean dead of old age.
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