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Javi Martínez [Javier Martínez Aginaga]

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Re: Javi Martínez [Javier Martínez Aginaga]

Postby aterford » Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:01 am

Dusel wrote:
Yeah Boateng did get destroyed by a peak Messi, I suppose he should hang his head in shame.

As for 16/17 Boateng was literally having fitness tests the night before matches. You can google KHR saying it. No need to be a doctor for that.

There were times people wrote Arjen Robben off as a "glass cannon". Now look at him still ripping apart the Bundesliga at 33.


"Boateng should hang his head in shame"

*Javi gets beat by peak Ronaldo* "haha he sucks what a noob error"

Are you insinuating that Boateng was getting fitness tests before every single match he played in? And that he never once hit full fitness in any of the 21 matches he played in this season? The only alternative is that Boateng was requesting to play in matches when he knew he wasn't fit, which is selfish at best and if not selfish then it's just plain dumb.

Again, you're missing the direction their health is heading. Robben has been able to eliminate the constant, niggling injuries for the most part - Javi's health has been consistently improving - while Boateng's has been steadily getting worse. Of course, every injury is different and every player responds differently but it doesn't take an expert to understand that the direction Boateng has been headed in is radically different from that of Robben, Javi, etc - truthfully, he's entering Badstuber-territory. To reiterate: muscular injuries - like the ones Boateng have been plagued with - are almost always at a higher risk of re-injury and rarely heal as well as 'structural' injuries like the ones Martinez has suffered. At the end of the day, all the evidence suggests Boateng is getting worse and Javi is getting better. Again, I hope to be proven wrong but at the moment there's nothing to suggest otherwise.
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Re: Javi Martínez [Javier Martínez Aginaga]

Postby Dusel » Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:29 am

aterford wrote:
Dusel wrote:
Yeah Boateng did get destroyed by a peak Messi, I suppose he should hang his head in shame.

As for 16/17 Boateng was literally having fitness tests the night before matches. You can google KHR saying it. No need to be a doctor for that.

There were times people wrote Arjen Robben off as a "glass cannon". Now look at him still ripping apart the Bundesliga at 33.


"Boateng should hang his head in shame"

*Javi gets beat by peak Ronaldo* "haha he sucks what a noob error"

Are you insinuating that Boateng was getting fitness tests before every single match he played in? And that he never once hit full fitness in any of the 21 matches he played in this season? The only alternative is that Boateng was requesting to play in matches when he knew he wasn't fit, which is selfish at best and if not selfish then it's just plain dumb.

Again, you're missing the direction their health is heading. Robben has been able to eliminate the constant, niggling injuries for the most part - Javi's health has been consistently improving - while Boateng's has been steadily getting worse. Of course, every injury is different and every player responds differently but it doesn't take an expert to understand that the direction Boateng has been headed in is radically different from that of Robben, Javi, etc - truthfully, he's entering Badstuber-territory. To reiterate: muscular injuries - like the ones Boateng have been plagued with - are almost always at a higher risk of re-injury and rarely heal as well as 'structural' injuries like the ones Martinez has suffered. At the end of the day, all the evidence suggests Boateng is getting worse and Javi is getting better. Again, I hope to be proven wrong but at the moment there's nothing to suggest otherwise.


Sigh. This is getting exhausting.

How about if Jerome Boateng himself said it? "It was difficult because at no time was I at 100 percent fitness."
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Re: Javi Martínez [Javier Martínez Aginaga]

Postby aterford » Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:56 am

Well, I guess that settles it! Boateng said he wasn't at 100% fitness and there's no way he'd lie about that! It's a cop out. Would you expect him to come out and say "I was fit, just played poorly"? If I had a crap season you can bet I'd try and pin it on a previous injury too.

But still, as I said, it begs the question. If that's the case, why was he asking to play? Selfish or just dumb?
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Re: Javi Martínez [Javier Martínez Aginaga]

Postby Dusel » Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:26 am

aterford wrote:Well, I guess that settles it! Boateng said he wasn't at 100% fitness and there's no way he'd lie about that! It's a cop out. Would you expect him to come out and say "I was fit, just played poorly"? If I had a crap season you can bet I'd try and pin it on a previous injury too.


Great, so Rumminegge publicly saying that Boateng was getting fitness tested the night before Champions League matches + Boateng himself saying he was never 100% fit is just not good enough for you.

It's all a big conspiracy.

No point in continuing this chat.

But still, as I said, it begs the question. If that's the case, why was he asking to play? Selfish or just dumb?


Because the coach or somebody with authority asked him to? Because somebody decided an 80-90% Boateng is better than other options? Have you never had to play through pain before on an amature team? Rolled an ankle or pulled a hamstring in a tournament, then returned a few days later because your team needs you, but every step still hurts? You are able to play, but when every step is painful you are at a huge disadvantage. It happens all the time.

Do you honestly believe that Boateng has the authority to say "Hey, Ancelotti, I'm starting today."???
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Re: Javi Martínez [Javier Martínez Aginaga]

Postby aterford » Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:35 am

Dusel wrote:
But still, as I said, it begs the question. If that's the case, why was he asking to play? Selfish or just dumb?


Because the coach or somebody with authority asked him to? Because somebody decided an 80-90% Boateng is better than other options? Have you never had to play through pain before on an amature team? Rolled an ankle or pulled a hamstring in a tournament, then returned a few days later because your team needs you, but every step still hurts? You are able to play, but when every step is painful you are at a huge disadvantage. It happens all the time.

Do you honestly believe that Boateng has the authority to say "Hey, Ancelotti, I'm starting today."???


He certainly has the authority to say "Sorry Coach, I can't go today," and I think it's infinitely more likely that he was requesting to play when he wasn't fully fit than it is that he was requesting to not play but Ancelotti was insisting that he did.
If Boateng's poor performances were due to playing at 80-90% then the argument that he was the best option goes out the window.
Again, you still can't get around the fact that Boateng's health has indisputably been getting worse while Javi's has been getting better.
Let's not beat around the bush here: What leads you to believe that Boateng will regain his "2014-2015 100%" level? What is it that leads you to believe he won't continue to struggle with his health? Is a perpetually half-fit Boateng better than a fit Martinez? Don't come at me with "this player was hurt and they got better" or any of that. Based on Boateng and Boateng alone, what leads you to believe that things will improve?
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Re: Javi Martínez [Javier Martínez Aginaga]

Postby Dusel » Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:47 am

aterford wrote:
He certainly has the authority to say "Sorry Coach, I can't go today," and I think it's infinitely more likely that he was requesting to play when he wasn't fully fit than it is that he was requesting to not play but Ancelotti was insisting that he did.


Did you even bother to read the link I provided - since context shows you didn't take the time to find KHR's comments? You would have read that Boateng said he never got to recover properly because of the short time between important matches. Does that sound like a guy trying to force his way into playing to you?

If Boateng's poor performances were due to playing at 80-90% then the argument that he was the best option goes out the window.


That argument holds no water. A Boateng at 80-90% is better than moving other players out of position. Hummels was also having injury problems of his own.

Again, you still can't get around the fact that Boateng's health has indisputably been getting worse while Javi's has been getting better.
Let's not beat around the bush here: What leads you to believe that Boateng will regain his "2014-2015 100%" level? What is it that leads you to believe he won't continue to struggle with his health? Is a perpetually half-fit Boateng better than a fit Martinez? Don't come at me with "this player was hurt and they got better" or any of that. Based on Boateng and Boateng alone, what leads you to believe that things will improve?


So, basicaclly, you are saying let's ignore all the evidence and divert the conversation from the original point that Boateng is a better, more valuable CB than Martinez?

My answer to "Based on Boateng and Boateng alone, what leads you to believe that things will improve?" is because it is 2017 and modern medicine will not allow a 28 year old phenomenal athlete's career to just phase out when he hasn't even suffered an actual career-threatening injury. If his career falls off a cliff, there has been some horrible mishandling by the medical staff or management. That's about the best you'll get with the silly, arbitrary rules you put on the answer that enforce ignoring evidence.
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Re: Javi Martínez [Javier Martínez Aginaga]

Postby aterford » Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:44 am

Dusel wrote:
aterford wrote:
He certainly has the authority to say "Sorry Coach, I can't go today," and I think it's infinitely more likely that he was requesting to play when he wasn't fully fit than it is that he was requesting to not play but Ancelotti was insisting that he did.


Did you even bother to read the link I provided - since context shows you didn't take the time to find KHR's comments? You would have read that Boateng said he never got to recover properly because of the short time between important matches. Does that sound like a guy trying to force his way into playing to you?

If Boateng's poor performances were due to playing at 80-90% then the argument that he was the best option goes out the window.


That argument holds no water. A Boateng at 80-90% is better than moving other players out of position. Hummels was also having injury problems of his own.

Again, you still can't get around the fact that Boateng's health has indisputably been getting worse while Javi's has been getting better.
Let's not beat around the bush here: What leads you to believe that Boateng will regain his "2014-2015 100%" level? What is it that leads you to believe he won't continue to struggle with his health? Is a perpetually half-fit Boateng better than a fit Martinez? Don't come at me with "this player was hurt and they got better" or any of that. Based on Boateng and Boateng alone, what leads you to believe that things will improve?


So, basicaclly, you are saying let's ignore all the evidence and divert the conversation from the original point that Boateng is a better, more valuable CB than Martinez?

My answer to "Based on Boateng and Boateng alone, what leads you to believe that things will improve?" is because it is 2017 and modern medicine will not allow a 28 year old phenomenal athlete's career to just phase out when he hasn't even suffered an actual career-threatening injury. If his career falls off a cliff, there has been some horrible mishandling by the medical staff or management. That's about the best you'll get with the silly, arbitrary rules you put on the answer that enforce ignoring evidence.


1. Again, if he feels he's not fit enough to play, he's more than capable to say "Sorry coach, but I'm just not fit enough to play today". Perhaps he's not forcing his way in, but he certainly wasn't listening to his body when it was telling him he wasn't healthy.

2. First off, if Boateng's performances this year were at 80-90% then it's safe to say that his 100% isn't the same as before. If he played at 80-90% this season, then what used to be his "7" would now be his "10". *If* you operate under that premise - that he was nearly fit but not quite there -then it should also be painfully obvious that he's very, very far from his former level. You get that, yeah? This is my point: if you're willing to say he was an 8/10 or a 9/10 then you must accept that his 10/10 right now is VERY far away from his former 10/10.
In whatever case he certainly wasn't better than Javi at any point, and I don't think Alaba, Lahm, Kimmich etc could've possibly fared much worse. Perhaps a bit of rose-colored glasses here for some....Boateng was downright bad the majority of his appearances this year.

3. No, not ignoring any evidence. You are operating under a faulty assumption which leads you to believe I'm ignoring evidence. You are assuming that Boateng at 100% right now is better than Javi right now - but the fact of the matter is that we don't know what his current 100% *is*. You can certainly say that Boateng *was* a better, more valuable CB - but the burden of proof also lies on you to show that he will continue to be better and more valuable. I am quite familiar with modern medicine - but I understand physiology as well. Modern medicine still cannot reverse time. It cannot change the fact that at 28 he's at best on the back end of his physical peak and is more than likely already past it. Our bodies reach their physical peak at ~26 and our capacity to develop and repair muscle dramatically declines at age 30. This only serves to work against Boateng, who, as I've mentioned has dealt with primarily major muscle injuries. It's not about "career-ending" injuries, because modern medicine *has* done well to minimize these things (you know, like the ligament damage Javi suffered - they now often heal stronger than pre-injury). For all this, chronic injuries - injuring and re-injuring the same muscle groups, as Boateng has done - is still very difficult for medicine to eliminate. I'm not saying he won't ever be able to play again or that he'll 'fall off a cliff' but rather that it's more likely than not that his "new" 100% won't be the same level as his previous 100%. But, as you're the one making the positive claim here - "Boateng will continue to be better and more valuable than Javi when he reaches 100%" - then the burden of proof is on you to provide evidence for this claim. Outside of a baseless appeal to authority "we have good doctors now" you've yet to do so.
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Re: Javi Martínez [Javier Martínez Aginaga]

Postby Dusel » Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:37 am

aterford wrote:
Dusel wrote:
aterford wrote:
He certainly has the authority to say "Sorry Coach, I can't go today," and I think it's infinitely more likely that he was requesting to play when he wasn't fully fit than it is that he was requesting to not play but Ancelotti was insisting that he did.


Did you even bother to read the link I provided - since context shows you didn't take the time to find KHR's comments? You would have read that Boateng said he never got to recover properly because of the short time between important matches. Does that sound like a guy trying to force his way into playing to you?

If Boateng's poor performances were due to playing at 80-90% then the argument that he was the best option goes out the window.


That argument holds no water. A Boateng at 80-90% is better than moving other players out of position. Hummels was also having injury problems of his own.

Again, you still can't get around the fact that Boateng's health has indisputably been getting worse while Javi's has been getting better.
Let's not beat around the bush here: What leads you to believe that Boateng will regain his "2014-2015 100%" level? What is it that leads you to believe he won't continue to struggle with his health? Is a perpetually half-fit Boateng better than a fit Martinez? Don't come at me with "this player was hurt and they got better" or any of that. Based on Boateng and Boateng alone, what leads you to believe that things will improve?


So, basicaclly, you are saying let's ignore all the evidence and divert the conversation from the original point that Boateng is a better, more valuable CB than Martinez?

My answer to "Based on Boateng and Boateng alone, what leads you to believe that things will improve?" is because it is 2017 and modern medicine will not allow a 28 year old phenomenal athlete's career to just phase out when he hasn't even suffered an actual career-threatening injury. If his career falls off a cliff, there has been some horrible mishandling by the medical staff or management. That's about the best you'll get with the silly, arbitrary rules you put on the answer that enforce ignoring evidence.


1. Again, if he feels he's not fit enough to play, he's more than capable to say "Sorry coach, but I'm just not fit enough to play today". Perhaps he's not forcing his way in, but he certainly wasn't listening to his body when it was telling him he wasn't healthy.

2. First off, if Boateng's performances this year were at 80-90% then it's safe to say that his 100% isn't the same as before. If he played at 80-90% this season, then what used to be his "7" would now be his "10". *If* you operate under that premise - that he was nearly fit but not quite there -then it should also be painfully obvious that he's very, very far from his former level. You get that, yeah? This is my point: if you're willing to say he was an 8/10 or a 9/10 then you must accept that his 10/10 right now is VERY far away from his former 10/10.
In whatever case he certainly wasn't better than Javi at any point, and I don't think Alaba, Lahm, Kimmich etc could've possibly fared much worse. Perhaps a bit of rose-colored glasses here for some....Boateng was downright bad the majority of his appearances this year.

3. No, not ignoring any evidence. You are operating under a faulty assumption which leads you to believe I'm ignoring evidence. You are assuming that Boateng at 100% right now is better than Javi right now - but the fact of the matter is that we don't know what his current 100% *is*. You can certainly say that Boateng *was* a better, more valuable CB - but the burden of proof also lies on you to show that he will continue to be better and more valuable. I am quite familiar with modern medicine - but I understand physiology as well. Modern medicine still cannot reverse time. It cannot change the fact that at 28 he's at best on the back end of his physical peak and is more than likely already past it. Our bodies reach their physical peak at ~26 and our capacity to develop and repair muscle dramatically declines at age 30. This only serves to work against Boateng, who, as I've mentioned has dealt with primarily major muscle injuries. It's not about "career-ending" injuries, because modern medicine *has* done well to minimize these things (you know, like the ligament damage Javi suffered - they now often heal stronger than pre-injury). For all this, chronic injuries - injuring and re-injuring the same muscle groups, as Boateng has done - is still very difficult for medicine to eliminate. I'm not saying he won't ever be able to play again or that he'll 'fall off a cliff' but rather that it's more likely than not that his "new" 100% won't be the same level as his previous 100%. But, as you're the one making the positive claim here - "Boateng will continue to be better and more valuable than Javi when he reaches 100%" - then the burden of proof is on you to provide evidence for this claim. Outside of a baseless appeal to authority "we have good doctors now" you've yet to do so.


Another wall of text? Really?

I'm not going to continue going back and forth over inane details and theoretical situations until the next ice age.

The facts are you are ignoring public statements by Rummenigge and Boateng themselves.

You are also ignoring the precedent set by players like Robben who have recovered from a series of muscular injuries to play extremely well into their 30s.

Continuing this discussion further is obviously not going to be productive. I'm done with this one. Have a good night/morning.
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Re: Javi Martínez [Javier Martínez Aginaga]

Postby Dumbledore7 » Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:03 am

This guy is trying to convince fellow Bayern fans that a fit Boateng is better than Javi FFS. Well no shit Sherlock. My and aterford's point is that Boateng will never be fit again, nothing about their abilities.
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Re: Javi Martínez [Javier Martínez Aginaga]

Postby MUTU » Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:43 am

Dumbledore7 wrote:This guy is trying to convince fellow Bayern fans that a fit Boateng is better than Javi FFS. Well no shit Sherlock. My and aterford's point is that Boateng will never be fit again, nothing about their abilities.

A World Cup is coming. He will make sure he will be fit by the end of the season at the latest.
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Re: Javi Martínez [Javier Martínez Aginaga]

Postby aterford » Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:20 pm

MUTU wrote:
Dumbledore7 wrote:This guy is trying to convince fellow Bayern fans that a fit Boateng is better than Javi FFS. Well no shit Sherlock. My and aterford's point is that Boateng will never be fit again, nothing about their abilities.

A World Cup is coming. He will make sure he will be fit by the end of the season at the latest.


For me it's not so much "will he be fit" but "will he be at the same level"

As I feel I've sufficiently outlined above (many times and many ways) there's reason to believe that even when he achieves full fitness he won't reach the same peak he once did.

I'm struggling for an analogy here but.... Try to visualize it as container holding liquid, wherein the liquid is the measure of one's performance. First, it is 100% full and 100% of it is liquid. Now, for every little knock, major injury, etc, say you add a few rocks to the container. Fill it with liquid again: it's 100% full, but we now realize it's not 100% full of liquid. See what I mean? Boateng may very well get back to 100% fitness, but that doesn't mean his performance level will ever be the same. What was once 75% performance may now be 100%.
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Re: Javi Martínez [Javier Martínez Aginaga]

Postby Coman » Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:50 pm

He wants to go to City and be injured all the time under Pep "I don't give players any physical training in pre-season" Guardiola ?
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