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Javi Martínez [Javier Martínez Aginaga]

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Re: Javi Martínez [Javier Martínez Aginaga]

Postby #12 » Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:48 pm

MoFattal wrote:That's right, they do not "need" to sell him, but it'll make it easier for them to break the transfer record when they make a record sale. We're always hearing about our willingness to even pay 100m for a player if needed, but that has not yet materialized even remotely. We haven't even approached the 60m purchase price, which is somehow considered the average price of a top player nowadays. If a big fund comes in, along with our budget, we can go for two top-level players.


Because it's bullshit

It's not a matter of finances, but of principles... (actually THE positive thing about our board that they have principles - just that they should adapt them to the circumstances...)
JUPPJUPPJUPPJUPPJUPPJUPPJUPPJUPPJUPPJUPPJUPPJUPPJUPPJUPPJUPP
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Re: Javi Martínez [Javier Martínez Aginaga]

Postby Dusel » Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:02 pm

Dumbledore7 wrote:A lot of you seem to think that Javi's down in the pecking order for reasons I don't understand. If any one of our defenders would leave, I'm willing to bet Boateng will be the first to go.


Why is that? Injuries?

Javi has played less games per season on average for Bayern than Boateng. When they are both fully fit Boateng is clearly a better CB. The CL matches against Madrid and the DFB Pokal Semifinals against Dortmund were a reminder that Javi is not world class as a central defender. He's good for the Bundesliga most match days and CL group stage, but when it comes to elite level competition Javi struggles at CB.

Javi was a great midfielder but he hasn't played there since Pep moved him.
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Re: Javi Martínez [Javier Martínez Aginaga]

Postby Pelin » Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:24 pm

Boateng had 2 long term injury. it's very hard to return his best for every player after such injuries.

Btw, selling Boateng is not a good message to football world. Bayern should never sell their best players for money. Never. as if we need money. On the contrary,Bayern should sell only it's fodders or declined players.

We have spent too much money on non-transfer issues in the last 2 years. Now it's time to spend it all on our squad.
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Re: Javi Martínez [Javier Martínez Aginaga]

Postby Dumbledore7 » Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:08 pm

Dusel wrote:
Dumbledore7 wrote:A lot of you seem to think that Javi's down in the pecking order for reasons I don't understand. If any one of our defenders would leave, I'm willing to bet Boateng will be the first to go.


Why is that? Injuries?

Javi has played less games per season on average for Bayern than Boateng. When they are both fully fit Boateng is clearly a better CB. The CL matches against Madrid and the DFB Pokal Semifinals against Dortmund were a reminder that Javi is not world class as a central defender. He's good for the Bundesliga most match days and CL group stage, but when it comes to elite level competition Javi struggles at CB.

Javi was a great midfielder but he hasn't played there since Pep moved him.


No, because Javi is a better player and more valuable than Boateng. Simple as.
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Re: Javi Martínez [Javier Martínez Aginaga]

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:09 pm

PunkCapitalist wrote:
FCBayernMunchen wrote:
Coman wrote:Bayern took Süle to replace Badstuber (and give him more playing time of course I hope). Not to let Martinez leave.

Like bastos said, except if City accept a swap with Sané there is no way this happen.

Martinez sold isn't the worse thing that could happen to Bayern. But we still need him.


But it is expected that someone will be disappointed to be fourth choice. Süle is way ahead of Badstuber in recent years and Javi in midfield does not seem to be a possibility.

I can see us selling Javi and getting some late 20s decent CB. Obviously as far as quality is concerned it would be best not to.


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Why isn't Javi an option for MF? I think it's not only desirable, but almost required. Rudy as his backup. Tolisso as vice Vidal and Thiago (or maybe Vidal as vice Tolisso ;). Renato on loan to Hoffenheim alongside Gnabry.

:D


I agree but our transfers and his role under our last two coaches indicate otherwise


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Re: Javi Martínez [Javier Martínez Aginaga]

Postby Dusel » Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:25 pm

Dumbledore7 wrote:
Dusel wrote:
Dumbledore7 wrote:A lot of you seem to think that Javi's down in the pecking order for reasons I don't understand. If any one of our defenders would leave, I'm willing to bet Boateng will be the first to go.


Why is that? Injuries?

Javi has played less games per season on average for Bayern than Boateng. When they are both fully fit Boateng is clearly a better CB. The CL matches against Madrid and the DFB Pokal Semifinals against Dortmund were a reminder that Javi is not world class as a central defender. He's good for the Bundesliga most match days and CL group stage, but when it comes to elite level competition Javi struggles at CB.

Javi was a great midfielder but he hasn't played there since Pep moved him.


No, because Javi is a better player and more valuable than Boateng. Simple as.


Haha, thanks for making me laugh on a Monday!

Boateng is one of the best CBs in the world when he's fit. Javi isn't even in the discussion of being a world class CB. He's good, just like Sokratis or Toprak are good. But that's it.

Javi was one of the best defensive midfielders when he played midfielder years ago. Key words being midfielder and years ago.

I don't want Bayern to sell either of them, but Boateng is easily more valuable to Bayern than Martinez. Especially now that Tolisso and Sule are signed.
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Re: Javi Martínez [Javier Martínez Aginaga]

Postby Bentonomo » Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:49 pm

A shame injuries and being playing out of position affected his carreer so much
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Re: Javi Martínez [Javier Martínez Aginaga]

Postby Dusel » Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:56 pm

Bentonomo wrote:A shame injuries and being playing out of position affected his carreer so much


Agreed. Javi was really great in midfield I thought. World class.

Javi + Basti together were the best midfield in Europe in 2013 IMO. Pep was a good coach (and still is a good coach) but he made a big mistake taking that partnership apart and moving Lahm from RB.
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Re: Javi Martínez [Javier Martínez Aginaga]

Postby Dumbledore7 » Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:00 pm

Dusel wrote:Haha, thanks for making me laugh on a Monday!

Boateng is one of the best CBs in the world when he's fit. Javi isn't even in the discussion of being a world class CB. He's good, just like Sokratis or Toprak are good. But that's it.

Javi was one of the best defensive midfielders when he played midfielder years ago. Key words being midfielder and years ago.

I don't want Bayern to sell either of them, but Boateng is easily more valuable to Bayern than Martinez. Especially now that Tolisso and Sule are signed.

Boateng isn't likely to reach a point in his career where he'll be fit enough to be elite anymore. Maybe up to 6-7 world class games a season and that's it.

Javi isn't even in the discussion of being a world class player because the footballing community keep making idiotic remarks like he's only as good as Sokratis and Toprak. A shame that a Bayern fan would say that.
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Re: Javi Martínez [Javier Martínez Aginaga]

Postby Dusel » Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:14 pm

Dumbledore7 wrote:Boateng isn't likely to reach a point in his career where he'll be fit enough to be elite anymore. Maybe up to 6-7 world class games a season and that's it.


How did you reach this conclusion? Are you a medical doctor who has evaluated Boateng?

I seem to remember a period where Martinez missed 70 days and 22 matches for a groin operation followed 1 year later by another period where he missed 252 days and 44 matches for a cruciate ligament rupture. Then various periods where he missed 59 days for patella problems, 49 days for meniscal damage, 24 days for a hamstring injury, etc. Now he has missed another 83 days with a collarbone fracture, but you are not declaring his career over?

Why the discrepancy?

Javi isn't even in the discussion of being a world class player because the footballing community keep making idiotic remarks like he's only as good as Sokratis and Toprak. A shame that a Bayern fan would say that.


So since I support Bayern I can't be objective about Javi not being a world class CB? That's ridiculous.

Did you not watch Javi commit massive defensive errors against Dortmund and Madrid in the Pokal Semi and CL?
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Re: Javi Martínez [Javier Martínez Aginaga]

Postby Dumbledore7 » Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:24 pm

To call him the same level as Sokratis and Toprak is downright insulting. Dortmund will trade them for him without thinking twice.

Didn't see anything. The red card was necessary because of Alonso's screw-up and Boateng lost us the Madrid game for his bad positioning. Not the first CL semi-final he's lost us either.
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Re: Javi Martínez [Javier Martínez Aginaga]

Postby Dusel » Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:58 pm

Dumbledore7 wrote:To call him the same level as Sokratis and Toprak is downright insulting. Dortmund will trade them for him without thinking twice.

Didn't see anything. The red card was necessary because of Alonso's screw-up and Boateng lost us the Madrid game for his bad positioning. Not the first CL semi-final he's lost us either.


2:40 Martinez completely loses Ronaldo in the box, Ronaldo scores a goal.
3:15 Martinez commits completely unnecessary foul at midfield on Ronaldo, receives 2nd yellow and subsequent red card.


0:30 Martinez backpass directly to Dortmund, leading to a Dortmund goal.
3:00 Martinez completely loses Aubameyang at the back post, leading to easy header and goal for Aubameyang. This should be basics for guys at that level.
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Re: Javi Martínez [Javier Martínez Aginaga]

Postby aterford » Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:28 pm

Are we going to compare high profile mistakes? Because I'm pretty sure Boateng has made his fair share, too. Do you remember when Messi buried him?

Boateng, for whatever reason, has become one of those Bayern players who is immune to criticism.
Martinez was better than Boateng at every point this season. Now, naturally, somebody's gonna come and say "that's because Boateng wasn't 100%" which is a cop-out of the highest order. First off: You're not a doctor. The team's physios, the coaches, and the player all deemed him perfectly fit to play. Second: Boateng had plenty of recovery time, so if he wasn't at 100% or close to it then it leads me to believe his injuries were more serious than he/the club let on to OR he simply is taking too long to get to match fitness these days. Third, we can't just keep saying "he wasn't fit" every time a player plays poorly. There are certain players who pick up a knock and it turns into a cover-all for bad play for the rest of their careers, apparently. Missed tackle? "He's not match fit." Dribbled past? "He hasn't had time to get back to speed." Caught out of position? "Well, he's not 100% yet." Makes a mistake that leads to a goal? "He shouldn't have been brought back so quickly." Etc, etc, etc. Tired of it. I don't mean to single out Boateng specifically - there are other players who receive such immunity as well - but as it's relevant to the issue at hand, I don't know why it's so hard for people to accept that perhaps Boateng *was* at 100% at various points this season and he simply wasn't good. What if his current 100% isn't the same level as his 100% a couple years ago? At some point you have to run out of excuses.

Further, consider this. Past two seasons Boateng has missed 326 days and 38 games. Previous eight seasons? 188 days and 25 games.
While Martinez hasn't exactly been a bastion of health, he's missed 252 days and 27 games in the past two seasons. In his prior career he'd missed 395 and 81 games. As you can see from just this simple data, they are trending in opposite directions. Javi's health has been improving over the past two years, while Boateng's has been worsening. It's also worth noting that the majority of Javi's missed time has been due to things like ligament/joint problems and broken bones, whereas the majority of Boateng's has come from muscular injuries, which generally tend to heal worse and have a higher risk of re-injury than ligament or joint damage.
That's not to say that Boateng can't get it all back together, but at his age with his health seemingingly worsening it's not a great sign. I agree that Boateng is probably better when they're both at their respective "100%s" but as I've said I'm not sure there's much reason to believe that Boateng will reach those levels again right now. I hope that he does and proves me wrong, but to do so would be a remarkable achievement at this point.
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Re: Javi Martínez [Javier Martínez Aginaga]

Postby Dusel » Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:13 pm

aterford wrote:Are we going to compare high profile mistakes? Because I'm pretty sure Boateng has made his fair share, too. Do you remember when Messi buried him?

Boateng, for whatever reason, has become one of those Bayern players who is immune to criticism.
Martinez was better than Boateng at every point this season. Now, naturally, somebody's gonna come and say "that's because Boateng wasn't 100%" which is a cop-out of the highest order. First off: You're not a doctor. The team's physios, the coaches, and the player all deemed him perfectly fit to play. Second: Boateng had plenty of recovery time, so if he wasn't at 100% or close to it then it leads me to believe his injuries were more serious than he/the club let on to OR he simply is taking too long to get to match fitness these days. Third, we can't just keep saying "he wasn't fit" every time a player plays poorly. There are certain players who pick up a knock and it turns into a cover-all for bad play for the rest of their careers, apparently. Missed tackle? "He's not match fit." Dribbled past? "He hasn't had time to get back to speed." Caught out of position? "Well, he's not 100% yet." Makes a mistake that leads to a goal? "He shouldn't have been brought back so quickly." Etc, etc, etc. Tired of it. I don't mean to single out Boateng specifically - there are other players who receive such immunity as well - but as it's relevant to the issue at hand, I don't know why it's so hard for people to accept that perhaps Boateng *was* at 100% at various points this season and he simply wasn't good. What if his current 100% isn't the same level as his 100% a couple years ago? At some point you have to run out of excuses.

Further, consider this. Past two seasons Boateng has missed 326 days and 38 games. Previous eight seasons? 188 days and 25 games.
While Martinez hasn't exactly been a bastion of health, he's missed 252 days and 27 games in the past two seasons. In his prior career he'd missed 395 and 81 games. As you can see from just this simple data, they are trending in opposite directions. Javi's health has been improving over the past two years, while Boateng's has been worsening. It's also worth noting that the majority of Javi's missed time has been due to things like ligament/joint problems and broken bones, whereas the majority of Boateng's has come from muscular injuries, which generally tend to heal worse and have a higher risk of re-injury than ligament or joint damage.
That's not to say that Boateng can't get it all back together, but at his age with his health seemingingly worsening it's not a great sign. I agree that Boateng is probably better when they're both at their respective "100%s" but as I've said I'm not sure there's much reason to believe that Boateng will reach those levels again right now. I hope that he does and proves me wrong, but to do so would be a remarkable achievement at this point.


Yeah Boateng did get destroyed by a peak Messi, I suppose he should hang his head in shame.

As for 16/17 Boateng was literally having fitness tests the night before matches. You can google KHR saying it. No need to be a doctor for that.

There were times people wrote Arjen Robben off as a "glass cannon". Now look at him still ripping apart the Bundesliga at 33.
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Re: Javi Martínez [Javier Martínez Aginaga]

Postby Ollio » Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:26 pm

Dusel wrote:As for 16/17 Boateng was literally having fitness tests the night before matches. You can google KHR saying it. No need to be a doctor for that.


If only they'd reduce conceded goals by doctors orders. But they don't. The quality of performance is what it is, whether it's fitness, personal issues, or whichever excuse. Hoping Boa will bounce back this season.
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