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Toni Kroos

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Would you like Kroos back at Bayern?

Yes
39
49%
No
40
51%
 
Total votes : 79

Re: Toni Kroos

Postby MUTU » Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:36 pm

Well done, Kalle! :roll: :(

"Toni is a friend of mine, and I know the whole story," Reinartz explained. "It was a little bit about money. Bayern Munich offered Toni a new contract. Toni knew what Mario Gotze was earning at Bayern Munich; Toni and Mario Gotze are [roughly] the same age. Bayern Munich didn't want to pay Toni more than €10 million.

"Bayern Munich CEO Karl-Heinz Rummenigge told Toni: 'We won't pay you more than €10 million a year because you're not a world-class player.' If you know Toni, it's not about money. He needs the confidence of other people. He knew he was a very good player, a world-class player. That was the breaking point."

Pep Guardiola, who was a year into his three-year tenure as manager at Bayern Munich, was mystified. He was powerless to hold on to Kroos, even though the German was an archetypal Guardiola player. "Guardiola tried everything," Reinartz said. "He went crazy that Bayern Munich didn't sign him for longer, but it was not possible because of the stance of Rummenigge. It was a no-go." [source]
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Re: Toni Kroos

Postby ramsej84 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:57 pm

MUTU wrote:Well done, Kalle! :roll: :(

"Toni is a friend of mine, and I know the whole story," Reinartz explained. "It was a little bit about money. Bayern Munich offered Toni a new contract. Toni knew what Mario Gotze was earning at Bayern Munich; Toni and Mario Gotze are [roughly] the same age. Bayern Munich didn't want to pay Toni more than €10 million.

"Bayern Munich CEO Karl-Heinz Rummenigge told Toni: 'We won't pay you more than €10 million a year because you're not a world-class player.' If you know Toni, it's not about money. He needs the confidence of other people. He knew he was a very good player, a world-class player. That was the breaking point."

Pep Guardiola, who was a year into his three-year tenure as manager at Bayern Munich, was mystified. He was powerless to hold on to Kroos, even though the German was an archetypal Guardiola player. "Guardiola tried everything," Reinartz said. "He went crazy that Bayern Munich didn't sign him for longer, but it was not possible because of the stance of Rummenigge. It was a no-go." [source]
I was never his biggest fan... but I admit that seeing him play for Real it is very painful...
And I have to admit that he has improved a lot since joining RM

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Re: Toni Kroos

Postby icewizard » Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:21 pm

ramsej84 wrote:
MUTU wrote:Well done, Kalle! :roll: :(

"Toni is a friend of mine, and I know the whole story," Reinartz explained. "It was a little bit about money. Bayern Munich offered Toni a new contract. Toni knew what Mario Gotze was earning at Bayern Munich; Toni and Mario Gotze are [roughly] the same age. Bayern Munich didn't want to pay Toni more than €10 million.

"Bayern Munich CEO Karl-Heinz Rummenigge told Toni: 'We won't pay you more than €10 million a year because you're not a world-class player.' If you know Toni, it's not about money. He needs the confidence of other people. He knew he was a very good player, a world-class player. That was the breaking point."

Pep Guardiola, who was a year into his three-year tenure as manager at Bayern Munich, was mystified. He was powerless to hold on to Kroos, even though the German was an archetypal Guardiola player. "Guardiola tried everything," Reinartz said. "He went crazy that Bayern Munich didn't sign him for longer, but it was not possible because of the stance of Rummenigge. It was a no-go." [source]
I was never his biggest fan... but I admit that seeing him play for Real it is very painful...
And I have to admit that he has improved a lot since joining RM

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Actually, he was playing top class since 2012-2013 for us... The fact that Götze was considered top-class and not Kroos... We all know how this ended.

Our loss, Real's gain... Since then, Real Madrid won 2 UCLs, with Kroos as a starter...

I always loved the player, and i think that it was a very bad miscalculation from the FC Bayern management, especially that we had to pay for a replacement (Xabi Alonso) and that Götze didn't adapt properly here...

Moreover, Kroos is an adidas ambassador, and Götze showed his nike shirt on his unveiling... Nice way to please the sponsors and shareholders!
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Re: Toni Kroos

Postby Firefox1234 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:38 pm

As an avid fan of Kroos it was pretty obvious his departure was hardly the end of the world. Was he a world class player in my opinion? Yes, but he wasn't a game changer I would break the bank for and it looks like KHR co. realized that. I've never really understood why this forum went all gaga when Kroos left especially since when he was here he wasn't that appreciated but a handful of times. If R.Madrid hadn't been as successful as they currently are im sure it would have been a different story. In my opinion losing a player like Ballack was a bigger hit.
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Re: Toni Kroos

Postby Jorge » Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:04 pm

Firefox1234 wrote:Was he a world class player in my opinion? Yes, but he wasn't a game changer?

Of all our midfielders during and after Kroos: who do you consider "a game changer"?

Firefox1234 wrote: I would break the bank for and it looks like KHR co. realized that.


Was paying $12M a year to Kroos, a player with continuity at the club and wanted by almost every big club in Europe and essential in the coach's tactical plan, also the same of what Gotze was earning, "breaking the bank", well 3 years later Kroos earns $22M a year.

If I have to take a guess Kalle's biggest screw-up in his career was Gotze and how that impacted Bayern's rigid salary structure (which I support by the way). Kalle was so obsessed with giving a present to Pep that he miscalculated everything about Gotze. The timing of Kroos extension negotiation was a period of damage control after that screw-up and Kroos was the victim of circumstances.

Ballack's situation was different: Ballack wanted to leave regardless of how much money Bayern was willing to pay, he thought he was bigger than Bayern and the Bundesliga; Kroos preferred to stay at Bayern as equal to a player he considered comparable which was not an unreasonable demand.
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Re: Toni Kroos

Postby Firefox1234 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:19 pm

Jorge wrote:
Firefox1234 wrote:Was he a world class player in my opinion? Yes, but he wasn't a game changer?

Of all our midfielders during and after Kroos: who do you consider "a game changer"?

Firefox1234 wrote: I would break the bank for and it looks like KHR co. realized that.


Was paying $12M a year to Kroos, a player with continuity at the club and wanted by almost every big club in Europe and essential in the coach's tactical plan, also the same of what Gotze was earning, "breaking the bank", well 3 years later Kroos earns $22M a year.

If I have to take a guess Kalle's biggest screw-up in his career was Gotze and how that impacted Bayern's rigid salary structure (which I support by the way). Kalle was so obsessed with giving a present to Pep that he miscalculated everything about Gotze. The timing of Kroos extension negotiation was a period of damage control after that screw-up and Kroos was the victim of circumstances.

Ballack's situation was different: Ballack wanted to leave regardless of how much money Bayern was willing to pay, he thought he was bigger than Bayern and the Bundesliga; Kroos preferred to stay at Bayern as equal to a player he considered comparable which was not an unreasonable demand.

In my opinion a midfielder like Schweinsteiger was definitely a game changer as well as Vidal. I believe that Kroos became expendable to KHR's eyes when we signed up Thiago. As for Gotze that was definitely Bayern's biggest blunder since his contract was based on what he was supposed to become instead of what he was. It was a reasonable gambled but Bayern got burned but that happens sometimes. I agree Ballack was out of Bayern's control but he was a game changing player for Bayern at the time so his departure left a vacuum bigger than Kroos who had suitable replacements like Thiago. In my opinion the damage control has occurred this season with James joining the club and the club missed the chance when they didn't sign up De Bruyne, the club held on too long to the faith that Gotze could make a turn around but unfortunately it wasn't meant to be...
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Re: Toni Kroos

Postby aterford » Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:54 pm

Or, ya know, there's always the chance that Kroos' friend is just full of s**t.....


Kroos wanted to move to Madrid. Full stop. He can make excuses, have his friends tell stories, say it's about money, say it's about trust, whatever - but at the end of the day he was going to move to Madrid and he was going to find some way to justify it for himself, one way or another. We can say that we should've offered him more money, and that may well be true, but I'm pretty sure that even in the best case that just would've bought us maybe another year or two. Money or no money, he felt Madrid was a step up for him and he was always going to make that move.
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Re: Toni Kroos

Postby pyrasur » Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:45 pm

I didn't really understand why Bayern moved for Götze in 2013. Of the two Dortmund players Bayern were interested in, the priority of Götze over Lewy didn't make much sense to me, just based on the squad we had. I didn't think midfield was a weakness at all, while the striker position Mandzukic was good but not world-class. Lewy was the impressive player in that 12/13 season anyway and Mandzukic was unsettled the whole 13/14 season knowing Lewy was coming. Unless there was no faith at that point in Xherdan Shaqiri to cover the left wing position, Bayern could have saved a lot of heartache getting Lewandowski a year earlier. A big salary for Lewandowski is probably more understandable as well than the salary difference between Götze and Kroos.

Granted I'm not certain if Dortmund would have allowed Lewandowski to move, but there may have been less bad blood if Bayern had negotiated for Lewandowski instead of forcefully activating Götze's release, given Dortmund probably had more expectation of Götze as a homegrown player.
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Re: Toni Kroos

Postby Jorge » Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:19 pm

Firefox1234 wrote:
Jorge wrote:
Firefox1234 wrote:Was he a world class player in my opinion? Yes, but he wasn't a game changer?

Of all our midfielders during and after Kroos: who do you consider "a game changer"?

In my opinion a midfielder like Schweinsteiger was definitely a game changer as well as Vidal.


By 2014-15 (when Kroos left) I am not sure that Bastian was a game changer player anymore, even more in the context of Guardiola's tactics. I say more, earlier in his career in a more advanced position he was lethal charging forward and able to give you a game with just a few attacking bursts, by 2014 he was a similar player to what Kroos was and is today. Vidal fights every minute and every inch on the pitch but I do not consider that a game changer. It hasn't worked out that way for us since he joined the team. Same goes for Chile. I actually think that Kroos presence in the German team at the moment has more weight than Vidal's presence in the Chilean team.

Furthermore, in recent history it is hard to find midfielders that are game changers, Makelele, Davids, come to mind right away, to an extend Effenberg if you want to look inside our house. You had Makelele and Davids on the field and not only they terrified going forward, they disrupted the opponents game in such a way that without their presence big games were anyone's game, with them, their team was the team to beat. In modern football midfielders are tasked more with managing the game (Xavi, Pirlo) being the conductor. This also explains why Thiago is not a game changer either: he spent -by tactical needs- too many minutes being the metrotone and not the lead singer of the band.
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Re: Toni Kroos

Postby Firefox1234 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:34 pm

Jorge wrote:
Firefox1234 wrote:
Jorge wrote:[quote="Firefox1234"]Was he a world class player in my opinion? Yes, but he wasn't a game changer?

Of all our midfielders during and after Kroos: who do you consider "a game changer"?

In my opinion a midfielder like Schweinsteiger was definitely a game changer as well as Vidal.


By 2014-15 (when Kroos left) I am not sure that Bastian was a game changer player anymore, even more in the context of Guardiola's tactics. I say more, earlier in his career in a more advanced position he was lethal charging forward and able to give you a game with just a few attacking bursts, by 2014 he was a similar player to what Kroos was and is today. Vidal fights every minute and every inch on the pitch but I do not consider that a game changer. It hasn't worked out that way for us since he joined the team. Same goes for Chile. I actually think that Kroos presence in the German team at the moment has more weight than Vidal's presence in the Chilean team.

Furthermore, in recent history it is hard to find midfielders that are game changers, Makelele, Davids, come to mind right away, to an extend Effenberg if you want to look inside our house. You had Makelele and Davids on the field and not only they terrified going forward, they disrupted the opponents game in such a way that without their presence big games were anyone's game, with them, their team was the team to beat. In modern football midfielders are tasked more with managing the game (Xavi, Pirlo) being the conductor. This also explains why Thiago is not a game changer either: he spent -by tactical needs- too many minutes being the metrotone and not the lead singer of the band.[/quote]

When I was referring to Bastian I was definitely thinking back to the last couple years when he was in his prime as for your point about Vidal I have to disagree but that's probably because of my bias for players who share that take no prisoner attitude and high work ethic, I think players like that can never be appreciated enough especially when they are as polished as Vidal technically. But your point about midfielders being game managers today is true. Less and less do you see midfielders being the engines that they used to be and drive teams forward in my opinion which is a bit of a disappointment. They one positive I would say though is that it does sometimes lead matches to be truly end to end as both teams forwards and defenders quickly try to make their presence felt but it can also lead to a game getting stale and bogged in midfield ironically.
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Re: Toni Kroos

Postby endrity » Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:06 am

This has become a semantic debate on what "game changer" means.

But if I ask myself if Bayern would be a better team with Kroos in it, even if that meant not having one of the current players (probably Thiago or James) than I am sure that I would answer "yes, Bayern would clearly be a better team".
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Re: Toni Kroos

Postby aterford » Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:59 am

endrity wrote:This has become a semantic debate on what "game changer" means.

But if I ask myself if Bayern would be a better team with Kroos in it, even if that meant not having one of the current players (probably Thiago or James) than I am sure that I would answer "yes, Bayern would clearly be a better team".


That's probably true.

But, it seems like a lot of people operate under the assumption that if we'd paid Kroos more he'd still be here today. I don't think that's the case. IMO our BEST case scenario was to offer him big money and a 1-2 year extension, a show of good faith and a way of saying thanks to the team/club. But I think at the end of the day he was always going to move. It was a good move for him, I don't deny that. We would probably be better off without him. But I can't say I miss him either. Kroos is one of the best midfielders in the world, but for me, when healthy and in-form, Thiago is right up there with him (I know that's not always the case). Keeping Kroos maybe means we don't sign Tolisso or guys like Goretzka in the future, who knows.
And at the end of the day: Thiago is always talking about how he loves Bayern, how he is so thankful for all the club has done for him, how happy he is to be in Munich. Kroos is always talking about how much of a step down Bayern is, how playing in Germany is now beneath him, etc....I know which I'd rather have around.
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Re: Toni Kroos

Postby endrity » Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:07 am

There is some resentment in Toni's words nowadays, but that is to be expected given what happened.

I don't think though that there is any evidence that he wanted to leave and he planned it all. He made it clear for months that he wanted to be paid like a top player and Bayern made it clear that they wouldn't. It doesn't seem to me like there was a long-running plan to leave Bayern, especially since during 2012-14 we seemed to be the top team in the world with Toni playing a big part.
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Re: Toni Kroos

Postby MUTU » Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:53 am

Let's be very clear. This guy was so great in 2012/13 that he was pushing an in-form Thomas Mueller onto the wing and forcing Arjen Robben on the bench. He was a great player for Germany at the World Cup 2014 just a year later. Everyone who wasn't biased against him considered him a top player, a world class player. Except Rummenigge.

Thus, we let our best youth product since Mueller (even this is debatable) leave for relative peanuts and become a leading player at our biggest European rivals. Just so that we wouldn't pay him even less money than what we're currently paying a 34-year old Ribery.

Years later I still can't swallow this bad decision.
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Re: Toni Kroos

Postby endrity » Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:41 am

MUTU wrote:Let's be very clear. This guy was so great in 2012/13 that he was pushing an in-form Thomas Mueller onto the wing and forcing Arjen Robben on the bench. He was a great player for Germany at the World Cup 2014 just a year later. Everyone who wasn't biased against him considered him a top player, a world class player. Except Rummenigge.

Thus, we let our best youth product since Mueller (even this is debatable) leave for relative peanuts and become a leading player at our biggest European rivals. Just so that we wouldn't pay him even less money than what we're currently paying a 34-year old Ribery.

Years later I still can't swallow this bad decision.


I agree totally on the conclusion but I think you are overrating his past valuation a bit. During 2011-12 and 12-13, Toni played a lot at #10 and that was never his best position. Van Gaal had already said a few times how he will improve when he moves a bit back. Just like we discuss with Gotze now, Toni never had the athleticism and pace to excel at the #10.

But if you remember, Toni wasn't a starter at the Euro2012 and was frustrated for it, and when he came into the team against Italy as a #10 by pushing Ozil to the left, the team suffered a lot. In 2013, he was a starter mostly due to Robben being injured and then somewhat punished for the end of the 11-12 season where he messed up against BVB, Chelsea, and also missed a big chance against Real at the Bernabeu. But once Toni was injured against Juve and Bayern steamrolled everyone, there was again a suspicion of Toni being a bit soft and replacable. So up until 2013, there wasn't a total agreement on his value.

It wasn't until 2014 when Guardiola finally moved Toni back to the position that everyone believed was his best, and then his great World Cup in the summer, that everyone finally realized what his value was. But by that point it seemed decisions had been made and the board had decided that the two previous seasons were more important than the current one. Toni's value has also been highlighted by Basti's decline I think. If Basti had been able to hold on for a few more years, it would have been easier to swallow.
Last edited by endrity on Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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