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Toni Kroos

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Would you like Kroos back at Bayern?

Yes
39
49%
No
40
51%
 
Total votes : 79

Re: Toni Kroos

Postby FishBowl » Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:57 am

endrity wrote:@FishBowl, I disagree.


By all means that's perfectly ok with me. It'd be really boring if everyone always agreed. Just look at the Lahm thread. :)

However, allow me to address some of these other points you made.

endrity wrote:You can say that Toni wasn't at his greatest in 2013 when we were trying to stick in the #10 position, though we all knew his long-term position was further back. But by 2014 he was already playing a key role with Pep, who tried very hard to keep him.


Yes Pep was certainly in Toni's corner, but he only got his shot deeper after Thiago's injury at the end of March. Not really all of 2014. He was unused multiple times after the winter break, and wasn't even on the bench in others. He was subbed off after about 60 minutes, or subbed on late in a game more than just a few times. IMO this was due to underperformed with the #10 role, but that is just my view. He was certainly given more time in April and May, but that's only a few games, not half the season.

endrity wrote:Though he had already agreed to his move to RM during the WC, we could already see there what he was becoming. And yes, he played a great WC. There isn't a team of the tournament ranking anywhere that doesn't include him. We could have given him his contract right there and then.


Huh? So he already was going to RM during/before the WC even started, but we could have given him a contract there and then? How does that work exactly? I fully agree that Kroos had made up his mind while in Brazil to go to Madrid after the way the board snuffed his contract requests, but there was no way he'd have taken a renewed offer by that point. He was mentally gone from Bayern, and quite honestly I think it helped his performance at the world cup. It's entirely conjecture, but I think he wanted to prove the board wrong and impress RM's board all at once. Just my opinion of course, but it's what I would have done/felt. Stick it to my old employer who had no faith and impress my future employer at the same time.


endrity wrote:Put it simply, the board picked the wrong player at the wrong time to try and make a point about wages.


Hindsight is always 20/20.

endrity wrote: If anything, Kroos was the one who had really shown that he deserved it.


Really? He failed in the role the board envisioned him in (CAM) when compared to his equals. He had an attitude that wasn't about wanting to be at bayern (this I admit is perception, but I'm also not alone in that view). Be wasn't superior to either Muller at CAM, or Basti at CM, and only got a deeper role late in the season when Thiago when down. In many people's views Kroos was out of line to be making the wage requests he was making.

I agree the board screwed up in the wage department when they signed Gotze, and potentially could have saved all the headaches by not backing the money truck up to Gotze, but Kroos really didn't show anything of note to be demanding the pay he supposedly wanted given his output from 2012-2014.

It's hard to watch a player we sold on the cheap to be so successful 2 to 3 years later but ultimately very few viewed him as great or even someone who could potentially be better than Basti ever was. And Kroos certainly has the chance to do that now, but I do contest that his heart was never really here after he was sent to and came back from Leverkusen, and he relished the move to RM which is perfectly fine IMO. I feel he was always at odds with the board due to always being second fiddle to Muller/Basti, and Thiago being Pep's preferred toy so he was more than happy to leave when Bayern's board essentially told him they didn't, in fact, rate him that highly by not meeting his wage demands.
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Re: Toni Kroos

Postby Jorge » Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:10 am

pyrasur wrote: He's got three CL medals. One of which he even managed to win from the sidelines injured.


Statements like this are the reason why this thread never ends and because it is a physical law that for every action there is a reaction once you put Kroos in a trash bag, others will build an altar for him.

In 2012-13 Toni Kroos played 9 Champions League games and scored 3 goals, one being the winning goal in the away game at Valencia and another the opening goal vs Arsenal in London, Kroos actually put MOTM performances in two of Bayern's away games, it is a fact that he featured in all but 4 games, to claim that he won the title from the sidelines does not contribute to any possible reasonable debate and only serves the purpose of creating more friction in the forum.

I am going to ask you a question and I hope that you are able to answer it without insults or going on the tangent, just an honest straight answer. It seems that most Kroos detractors are coincidentally Thiago supporters, Thiago of course is a player on the rise winning the hearts of many Bayern fans for good reasons, like myself there are people celebrating Kroos success that also celebrate Thiago's contribution this last season but I would like to hear from you, since you claim that playing 9 games out of 13 is being on the sidelines all along, what do you think about the post celebrating Thiago's 8 League Titles in this forum?
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Re: Toni Kroos

Postby nm462272 » Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:30 am

Jorge wrote:I am going to ask you a question and I hope that you are able to answer it without insults or going on the tangent, just an honest straight answer. It seems that most Kroos detractors are coincidentally Thiago supporters, Thiago of course is a player on the rise winning the hearts of many Bayern fans for good reasons, like myself there are people celebrating Kroos success that also celebrate Thiago's contribution this last season but I would like to hear from you, since you claim that playing 9 games out of 13 is being on the sidelines all along, what do you think about the post celebrating Thiago's 8 League Titles in this forum?


risking sounding like a moron, but:

a) i think Kroos is better than Thiago
b) i think Kroos is overrated

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Re: Toni Kroos

Postby aterford » Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:56 am

pyrasur wrote:I'm bitterly sarcastic because I'm bored. I just thought I was being clever using the phrases Trump uses all the time and mimicking the way some of the people on this forum talk. Mostly I was trying to amuse people.

For the nth time. Kroos is a great player. Really great. He's got three CL medals. One of which he even managed to win from the sidelines injured. Good for him. But I'm tired of people constantly throwing it in our faces like he's the footballing Jesus or something. People keep acting like Bayern didn't offer him a hugely improved contract, or that Bayern didn't raise him from nothing and give him a huge amount of trust. Maybe we should have swallowed our pride or realized how **** we were getting by the Mario Götze deal and been huge pussies and given in and given him Mario Götze level money. But at the end of the day he turned US down so we allowed him to leave.

Honestly. Track record at Bayern. Heynckes trusted Kroos with the keys to the team in 11/12 and we lost to **** Chelsea, but we chalk that one up on our German coach taking out Thomas Müller in the 88th minute instead of possibly putting away a shit 6th place English team in the 88 minutes before that. 12/13 he gets injured and we win the CL. 13/14 he's again the key midfielder and we get blown away by Real Madrid but let's chalk that one up to our Spanish coach. It's **** easy to quarterback on Monday and say, "wow that Kroos fella we really should have paid the man" instead of looking at that and wondering who the fück this guy thinks he is to disrespect Bayern. But the only one who is allowed to do that is that Kate chick that had the crush on Toni and said back then we should keep him.

I mean I'm as guilty of selectively remembering facts as anyone, hence why I choose to ignore how successful we were right up until we got blown away by RM. But at least I selectively remember facts in order to remember something happy. Why half this forum has this masochistic need to shit on ourselves blows my mind every time.


Pretty much nailed it. My trouble is this: we won 2-0 vs Juve, 7-0 vs Barca, and 2-1 vs Dortmund with no Kroos. This alone should make it readily apparent that we are capable of winning big matches without Kroos.
Could he have been paid more? Sure. Did he deserve it? Perhaps, perhaps not as much as he was asking for, but whatever.
It's interesting how we say "No player is bigger than the club" when we talk about guys like Boateng, Alaba, Costa, Lewandowski, etc, but when we talk about Kroos that seemingly flies out the window. If no player is bigger than the club, that means NO player - not Kroos, either.

Look at our past big losses. Real Madrid 13/14, Barca 14/15, Atletico 15/16, Madrid 16/17. First off, we had Kroos vs Madrid in 2013/2014 and still got torn a new butthole by Madrid. But further....can we honestly look at the rest of these matches and say "if we had Kroos still, we would have won all of these ties"? I don't think we can say that with any certainty. In no particular order, I think most would admit that these losses came due to lapses on defense, poor finishing, and at times due to Alonso being unable to control the midfield (and I am a big Alonso fan, but even I can admit this). There's a certain level of hypocrisy when you hear guys say that "If we started any midfielder other than Alonso we'd win" and then out of the other side of their mouth say "we needed Kroos to win these games". Which one is it?
Vs Barca we didn't have Robben or Ribery available, which forced us to play more CMs. Would Kroos have been able to win us those matches? Regardless of how quality you think he is, I don't think he's going to make up for the lack of any true wingers. Does Kroos singlehandedly stop Messi, Suarez, and Neymar?
How about Atletico? If Müller makes his penalty, do we lose? If we start Kimmich or Thiago at CM ahead of Alonso, do we lose? Both goals scored against us vs Atletico were essentially moments of individual brilliance, with Alonso and the rest of the defense being unable to make tackles on Saul and Griezmann. But again I ask: Does Kroos make the difference for us there? Maybe he does, but I'm not convinced that most midfielders would be able to make a tackle and break up those runs.
Against Madrid it's more of the same...
My point is this: i'm not trying to disparage Kroos or make you think that he's a poor player - he obviously is not. But I am not convinced that Kroos is able to give us any better results in the years since he's left if he'd stayed. I'm not convinced that Kroos wins us the ties vs Barca, Atleti, Madrid, etc. So I really do get that he is a top class player, but he is gone for good, and IMO we have more pressing issues in this team currently than our midfield.
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Toni Kroos

Postby pyrasur » Tue Jun 06, 2017 4:43 am

Jorge wrote:
I am going to ask you a question and I hope that you are able to answer it without insults or going on the tangent, just an honest straight answer. It seems that most Kroos detractors are coincidentally Thiago supporters, Thiago of course is a player on the rise winning the hearts of many Bayern fans for good reasons, like myself there are people celebrating Kroos success that also celebrate Thiago's contribution this last season but I would like to hear from you, since you claim that playing 9 games out of 13 is being on the sidelines all along, what do you think about the post celebrating Thiago's 8 League Titles in this forum?


Is it not obvious to everyone that he was not the mainstay of all 8 title winning sides? I don't know how many times I have to say Kroos is a great player, but is my diminishment of Kroos's achievements triggering you to diminish Thiago's minor trivia point? I'm pretty sure most of us just thought: good for Thiago. And then moved on with our lives.

I'm honestly asking what you want from Bayern fans. I'm also glad you agree the insults should stop. Let's make that a two-way agreement.
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Re: Toni Kroos

Postby Jorge » Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:12 am

pyrasur wrote:
Jorge wrote:
I am going to ask you a question and I hope that you are able to answer it without insults or going on the tangent, just an honest straight answer. It seems that most Kroos detractors are coincidentally Thiago supporters, Thiago of course is a player on the rise winning the hearts of many Bayern fans for good reasons, like myself there are people celebrating Kroos success that also celebrate Thiago's contribution this last season but I would like to hear from you, since you claim that playing 9 games out of 13 is being on the sidelines all along, what do you think about the post celebrating Thiago's 8 League Titles in this forum?


Is it not obvious to everyone that he was not the mainstay of all 8 title winning sides? I don't know how many times I have to say Kroos is a great player, but is my diminishment of Kroos's achievements triggering you to diminish Thiago's minor trivia point? I'm pretty sure most of us just thought: good for Thiago. And then moved on with our lives.

I'm honestly asking what you want from Bayern fans. I'm also glad you agree the insults should stop. Let's make that a two-way agreement.


I do not remember ever insulting you or fellow forum members, so the two-way agreement is unnecessary; but maybe I have come across confrontational specifically in the debate around Guardiola -like pretty much everybody- and that could be seeing as insulting, but for sure I have never used foul language towards you or any one.

Going back to the reason why I brought up the post about Thiago's 8 League titles, it is precisely because you diminished Kroos' CL accomplishment after a significant contribution by the player, based only on the fact that he was sidelined 4 out of 13 games, I do not know what your intention was, your statement is unfounded. As a parallel, in season 2008-09 Thiago featured just one time as a substitute in the 38 games that Barca played in the La Liga, in 2009-10 Thiago again featured in just one game out of 38, even in 2010-11 he saw the field only 12 times, even at Bayern Munich Thiago suffered a serious injury and in 2014-15 he was able to play only 7 league games. I can't think of any one, even those who dislike Thiago questioning that he does not deserve the 2014-15 Bundesliga Title. It will be absurd.

All I am saying is exactly what you said, when someone posted that Thiago has won 8 League tiles, we all took it lightly as a flying around trivia and besides a few jokes we were all well, I even kept to myself that Kevin Großkreutz wins World Cups besides peeing in Hotel Lobbies trying not to offend a couple of Thiago's most sensitive fans.

But you should agree with me, since you "stripped" Kroos out of a CL title for playing 70% of the games, that if anyone would have posted that Kroos won two League titles after playing only 2.6% of the games that person was a candidate for the guillotine.

At the end of the day, this is the Toni Kroos thread and I see more negative comments here than in any other thread (except Pep Guardiola's) where any fan celebrating Kroos accomplishments can post if not here?
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Re: Toni Kroos

Postby PunkCapitalist » Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:57 am

pyrasur wrote:I'm bitterly sarcastic because I'm bored. I just thought I was being clever using the phrases Trump uses all the time and mimicking the way some of the people on this forum talk. Mostly I was trying to amuse people.

For the nth time. Kroos is a great player. Really great. He's got three CL medals. One of which he even managed to win from the sidelines injured. Good for him. But I'm tired of people constantly throwing it in our faces like he's the footballing Jesus or something. People keep acting like Bayern didn't offer him a hugely improved contract, or that Bayern didn't raise him from nothing and give him a huge amount of trust. Maybe we should have swallowed our pride or realized how **** we were getting by the Mario Götze deal and been huge pussies and given in and given him Mario Götze level money. But at the end of the day he turned US down so we allowed him to leave.

Honestly. Track record at Bayern. Heynckes trusted Kroos with the keys to the team in 11/12 and we lost to **** Chelsea, but we chalk that one up on our German coach taking out Thomas Müller in the 88th minute instead of possibly putting away a shit 6th place English team in the 88 minutes before that. 12/13 he gets injured and we win the CL. 13/14 he's again the key midfielder and we get blown away by Real Madrid but let's chalk that one up to our Spanish coach. It's **** easy to quarterback on Monday and say, "wow that Kroos fella we really should have paid the man" instead of looking at that and wondering who the fück this guy thinks he is to disrespect Bayern. But the only one who is allowed to do that is that Kate chick that had the crush on Toni and said back then we should keep him.

I mean I'm as guilty of selectively remembering facts as anyone, hence why I choose to ignore how successful we were right up until we got blown away by RM. But at least I selectively remember facts in order to remember something happy. Why half this forum has this masochistic need to shit on ourselves blows my mind every time.

Hear, hear.

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Re: Toni Kroos

Postby PunkCapitalist » Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:05 am

FishBowl wrote:
endrity wrote:@FishBowl, I disagree.


By all means that's perfectly ok with me. It'd be really boring if everyone always agreed. Just look at the Lahm thread. :)

However, allow me to address some of these other points you made.

endrity wrote:You can say that Toni wasn't at his greatest in 2013 when we were trying to stick in the #10 position, though we all knew his long-term position was further back. But by 2014 he was already playing a key role with Pep, who tried very hard to keep him.


Yes Pep was certainly in Toni's corner, but he only got his shot deeper after Thiago's injury at the end of March. Not really all of 2014. He was unused multiple times after the winter break, and wasn't even on the bench in others. He was subbed off after about 60 minutes, or subbed on late in a game more than just a few times. IMO this was due to underperformed with the #10 role, but that is just my view. He was certainly given more time in April and May, but that's only a few games, not half the season.

endrity wrote:Though he had already agreed to his move to RM during the WC, we could already see there what he was becoming. And yes, he played a great WC. There isn't a team of the tournament ranking anywhere that doesn't include him. We could have given him his contract right there and then.


Huh? So he already was going to RM during/before the WC even started, but we could have given him a contract there and then? How does that work exactly? I fully agree that Kroos had made up his mind while in Brazil to go to Madrid after the way the board snuffed his contract requests, but there was no way he'd have taken a renewed offer by that point. He was mentally gone from Bayern, and quite honestly I think it helped his performance at the world cup. It's entirely conjecture, but I think he wanted to prove the board wrong and impress RM's board all at once. Just my opinion of course, but it's what I would have done/felt. Stick it to my old employer who had no faith and impress my future employer at the same time.


endrity wrote:Put it simply, the board picked the wrong player at the wrong time to try and make a point about wages.


Hindsight is always 20/20.

endrity wrote: If anything, Kroos was the one who had really shown that he deserved it.


Really? He failed in the role the board envisioned him in (CAM) when compared to his equals. He had an attitude that wasn't about wanting to be at bayern (this I admit is perception, but I'm also not alone in that view). Be wasn't superior to either Muller at CAM, or Basti at CM, and only got a deeper role late in the season when Thiago when down. In many people's views Kroos was out of line to be making the wage requests he was making.

I agree the board screwed up in the wage department when they signed Gotze, and potentially could have saved all the headaches by not backing the money truck up to Gotze, but Kroos really didn't show anything of note to be demanding the pay he supposedly wanted given his output from 2012-2014.

It's hard to watch a player we sold on the cheap to be so successful 2 to 3 years later but ultimately very few viewed him as great or even someone who could potentially be better than Basti ever was. And Kroos certainly has the chance to do that now, but I do contest that his heart was never really here after he was sent to and came back from Leverkusen, and he relished the move to RM which is perfectly fine IMO. I feel he was always at odds with the board due to always being second fiddle to Muller/Basti, and Thiago being Pep's preferred toy so he was more than happy to leave when Bayern's board essentially told him they didn't, in fact, rate him that highly by not meeting his wage demands.

In fact, Kroos only begun being regularly benches when his move was already in motion. At the time we all felt like denying it, but the truth is Pep benches him BECAUSE he refused to sign a contract and was already set on leaving.

There is also the inconvenient fact that Thiago was just showing much more than him during that season. Bayern actually went from extremely dominant to 4-0 at the Allianz after Thiago got injured, which is something people are a bit too eager to forget. My conclusion at the end of that season, and I believe it was somehow a consensus opinion, was that we depended too much on Thiago.

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Re: Toni Kroos

Postby Jorge » Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:14 pm

PunkCapitalist wrote:There is also the inconvenient fact that Thiago was just showing much more than him during that season. Bayern actually went from extremely dominant to 4-0 at the Allianz after Thiago got injured, which is something people are a bit too eager to forget. My conclusion at the end of that season, and I believe it was somehow a consensus opinion, was that we depended too much on Thiago.


Huh, talking about consensus, Toni Kroos was selected to The Champions League Team of the Season in 2013-14 by almost every single entity that came up with such selection, including UEFA, the same applies to 2012-13 (Group Stage). I keep wrecking my brain to understand why:
2013-14 UEFA Champions League squad of the season [source]


Kroos, along with Lahm were the only two Bayern outfield players picked for the UCL Team of the Season in 2013-14, and we are going to blame the 0-4 Munich debacle on Kroos? I am curious to know to what standard we are holding the other 10 players and the coach.
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Re: Toni Kroos

Postby pyrasur » Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:47 pm

Jorge wrote:But you should agree with me, since you "stripped" Kroos out of a CL title for playing 70% of the games, that if anyone would have posted that Kroos won two League titles after playing only 2.6% of the games that person was a candidate for the guillotine.

At the end of the day, this is the Toni Kroos thread and I see more negative comments here than in any other thread (except Pep Guardiola's) where any fan celebrating Kroos accomplishments can post if not here?


Alright fair enough. Let's just keep doing what we are doing then. My impression was that you were here to rub Toni Kroos in our faces, and to do it you cut down Bayern players. But if you wanna celebrate Kroos's achievements go right ahead.

Just like Toni Kroos, Guardiola is a good manager but not the be all end all. As manager he is responsible for everything his squad does and fails to do. Including 0-4. Now that you've brought Thiago and Guardiola into the Kroos equation, is there anyone else you'd like to add?

I still just really don't know what you want. What are you asking for?
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Re: Toni Kroos

Postby aterford » Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:00 pm

Jorge wrote:
PunkCapitalist wrote:are going to blame the 0-4 Munich debacle on Kroos? I am curious to know to what standard we are holding the other 10 players and the coach.


Here's the thing.
In order to be consistent, if you won't put any blame on Kroos for the 0-4 in Munich, then logically you also can't say that we lost any of the following games in whole due to his absence.
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Re: Toni Kroos

Postby Achilles » Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:01 pm

@Jorge
As much as I like and appreciate Kroos consistency while regretting big time that we didn't extend his contract the real question among us should be "if Kroos was still wearing a Bayern shirt we would be so much better and win another treble or the CL ?" I think that's the real question and not if Kroos is a world class player indeed or not which I think it's a laughable question because the guy is absolutely class.

Now, to answer the question, I don't think that Kroos is what we miss or need to get in our previous ruthless level, no question that a Thiago-Kroos-Vidal partnership would be awesome, let's get that clear, it would be fantastic but I don't think that he is the type of player we missing, the footballer that will give us that extra thing to advance. What we need is a strong midfielder that dictates his area not only by his leadership and passing but also when it comes to battles aka Schweinsteiger. We have the technical one(Thiago) we have the brutal one we lack the leader in his prime since prime-Alonso would be ideal. Kroos isn't that player, he lacks the leadership factor and he doesn't step up into the game unless it's a... parallel pass, he excels though in many different areas that can't be write down in stats such as covering his partner and tactical awareness on the transition.

For the bitter fans, swallowed it up, we messed it up with Kroos renewal and we lost a big player for peanuts, liking his persona or not doesn't matter at this time, he is above any of our current midfielders as a status and he is still 27. Indispensable member of Bayern Munich(winning everything) Real Madrid (winning everything) and Germany NT winning the WC and being very consistent in the last three competitions. So get rid of your squawka,whoscored stat or whatever column you are reading, the guy is a starter everywhere under any coach, world class & successful!
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Re: Toni Kroos

Postby shpati_L1 » Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:12 pm

Stop with this thread please please please.
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Re: Toni Kroos

Postby Jorge » Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:50 pm

Achilles wrote:@Jorge
As much as I like and appreciate Kroos consistency while regretting big time that we didn't extend his contract the real question among us should be "if Kroos was still wearing a Bayern shirt we would be so much better and win another treble or the CL ?" I think that's the real question and not if Kroos is a world class player indeed or not which I think it's a laughable question because the guy is absolutely class.

Now, to answer the question, I don't think that Kroos is what we miss or need to get in our previous ruthless level, no question that a Thiago-Kroos-Vidal partnership would be awesome, let's get that clear, it would be fantastic but I don't think that he is the type of player we missing, the footballer that will give us that extra thing to advance. What we need is a strong midfielder that dictates his area not only by his leadership and passing but also when it comes to battles aka Schweinsteiger. We have the technical one(Thiago) we have the brutal one we lack the leader in his prime since prime-Alonso would be ideal. Kroos isn't that player, he lacks the leadership factor and he doesn't step up into the game unless it's a... parallel pass, he excels though in many different areas that can't be write down in stats such as covering his partner and tactical awareness on the transition.

For the bitter fans, swallowed it up, we messed it up with Kroos renewal and we lost a big player for peanuts, liking his persona or not doesn't matter at this time, he is above any of our current midfielders as a status and he is still 27. Indispensable member of Bayern Munich(winning everything) Real Madrid (winning everything) and Germany NT winning the WC and being very consistent in the last three competitions. So get rid of your squawka,whoscored stat or whatever column you are reading, the guy is a starter everywhere under any coach, world class & successful!


Believe it or not I see the same way, even more since you mentioned that technically he is above any midfielder that we have, and most of that comes from a refine tactical discipline that is hard to match: if Kroos returns to Bayern he will be quite a few notches below expectations and he might not even make the grade so he is better of at Real Madrid. Kroos clicked in the Real Madrid tactical formation as well as Germany through continuity and it will not translate into instant success at Bayern if he returns, the team dynamics are different. I disagree with you that he wouldn't have made the grade if had stayed, simply because nobody knows. When he signed for Madrid a few here predicted that he was going to fail at a club that discards players left and right, even Arjen Robben warned him about the move, although Jupp supported him.

There is a lot of "if" arguments in this debate which I ignore for the most part since I have never seen football from that angle. I prefer to base my judgment on the football that I watched rather than the football that I could have watched.

Speaking of which I would like to clarify that highlighting Kroos accomplishments in the Toni Kroos thread does not have the intention of rubbing it on anyone's face; it can't be that way, it would be if I jump in another's player thread I bring up the Kroos subject which is precisely what other forum members are doing here, then complain about not having it their way.

Toni Kroos is an outstanding player who made massive contributions to Bayern for 8 years, was formed as a footballer in our youth program, he is a close friend of many of our current players, he is still appreciated by many Bayern fans, he is at this moment one of the best players in the world; and all attempts to tarnish his reputation as a player or diminish his accomplishments (and there is a lot of that here: in the Toni Kroos thread) is non sense and the only purpose that it serves is to rub on our face certain bitterness or unfounded disdain.
The problem is that it is hard to find any Bayern star in the history of the club that moved to a bigger club and improved his status in the world stage the way Kroos did, not even Paul Breitner in 1974 because Bayern went on to become bigger than Madrid those years, maybe when Matthaus and Brehme left in 1988 Inter was bigger than Bayern based on a specific time when Serie A was "the place" but Inter did not have Bayern's history. This could be a factor but there is a clear need by some posters to not accept real facts.

Now that Guardiola came into the mix, I challenge anyone to find any effort on my part to bash Pep in a constant manner for most likely 2 years when he started coaching. I was a Pep detractor way before he landed in Munich but no one could deny his accomplishments and resume and I never dared to question it, it would have been childish. After he miserably failed in tactics against the Spanish clubs and as a result Bayern was humiliated with successive thrashings I rightfully vented my frustration. If Kroos had turned to be a joke at Real Madrid and the same people were bashing him here there was no counter argument, but this isn't the case: it is the complete opposite. That's a fact and denying it is fighting windmills.
Where should we stop, accepting that Kroos is a mediocre footballer and does not deserve any of his accomplishments?
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Re: Toni Kroos

Postby Jorge » Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:38 am

Transfermarkt just updated Kroos profile:
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