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Toni Kroos

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Would you like Kroos back at Bayern?

Yes
39
49%
No
40
51%
 
Total votes : 79

Re: Toni Kroos

Postby FishBowl » Sun Jun 04, 2017 3:41 pm

Jorge wrote:If this is a matter of personal opinion you are entitled to such, like all who casted the votes for Messi as "Player of the Tournament", but objectively Kroos performed outstandingly throughout the tournament scoring the highest on the Castrol Performance Index with 9.79:


Sorry but CPI puts WAY too much into passes completed in general, and the "strength" of the opposition which in itself is subjective even if they determine said strength using more flawed data.

2010 WC CPI had the top 5 all being Defenders, all happened to have some of the highest rate of completed passes.

Golden boot winner came in 9th. And top GK didn't place at all while his runner up came in 10th

2012 Euro CPI 7 of the 10 were Spanish, due to Italy being in their group and also going to the final. 5 of the top 8 had highest rate of completed passes. With no basis on the importance of such passes.

2014 WC had the highest number of goals per game in the past 4 to 5 competitions, yet half of the top 10 were defenders. 7-1 Germany trounced Brazil, yet they placed 2 in the top 10? The Dutch made it through on penalties in the quarters and semis scoring 0 open field goals yet Robben came in second?

CPI is highly biased over volume and completion of passes, and the "quality" of the players opponents to a fault. He had a very good world cup, but best overall player? No. Kroos was not.
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Re: Toni Kroos

Postby Manchu » Sun Jun 04, 2017 6:47 pm

FishBowl wrote: After that he was nothing but side pass Kroos again. His entire game is built around being surrounded by world class players at every position and distributing the ball to them so they can be WC.

Are you talking about Kroos or Malekele?

Face it, Kroos is a regista, keeping possession of the ball and distributing it is his job, and his role is absolutely crucial at Real Madrid because, although there have been a few teams in the past few years that have been able to dominate possession and control the game without a dedicated regista(Bayern Munich 2012/13 comes to mind), Real Madrid is definitely not one of them because their defenders are simply not intelligent enough on the ball for that role. That's why they need Kroos so much.
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Re: Toni Kroos

Postby bastos80 » Sun Jun 04, 2017 6:53 pm

wait, wasn't kroos part of bayern 2012/13
Apparently Hater of German Players #1
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Re: Toni Kroos

Postby Manchu » Sun Jun 04, 2017 8:25 pm

bastos80 wrote:wait, wasn't kroos part of bayern 2012/13

Yeah, but he usually played as attacking mid, not regista(33 games as attacking mid, 4 as central mid/regista). And bayern 2012/13 actually sometimes did play with a player who could be considered as a regista as DM, but they could dominate possession without one; the people on the team which had the majority of possession and did the majority of distribution were Lahm and the center backs.

Of course, some people might argue that Schweinsteiger was effectively playing regista, and honestly team dynamics are way more complicated than can be summarized by a false dichotomy between having a regista and not having one, but, no, I would not say that this team with an average of 60%+ possession was generally playing with a classical regista.
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Re: Toni Kroos

Postby Jorge » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:30 am

FishBowl wrote:
Jorge wrote:If this is a matter of personal opinion you are entitled to such, like all who casted the votes for Messi as "Player of the Tournament", but objectively Kroos performed outstandingly throughout the tournament scoring the highest on the Castrol Performance Index with 9.79:


CPI is highly biased over volume and completion of passes, and the "quality" of the players opponents to a fault. He had a very good world cup, but best overall player? No. Kroos was not.


And where did you read that anyone said that Kroos was "the best overall player"? All I said was that a player who scored the highest in the CPI for sure was consistent enough throughout the tournament to earn those numbers. The only purpose of bringing it up was to proof another poster's claim that Kroos "played only against the Brazilian boys", which is ridiculous since Kroos was also picked by the accredited press in the Best XI of the tournament and I can't think of any game where he performed below the team.

As for the CPI true that it gives a lot of weight to pass completion, but at the same time it penalizes heavily turnovers and mistakes, so it is a reliable reference to understand football beyond perception.
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Re: Toni Kroos

Postby endrity » Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:36 pm

@FishBowl, I disagree.

You can say that Toni wasn't at his greatest in 2013 when we were trying to stick in the #10 position, though we all knew his long-term position was further back. But by 2014 he was already playing a key role with Pep, who tried very hard to keep him.

Though he had already agreed to his move to RM during the WC, we could already see there what he was becoming. And yes, he played a great WC. There isn't a team of the tournament ranking anywhere that doesn't include him. We could have given him his contract right there and then.

Put it simply, the board picked the wrong player at the wrong time to try and make a point about wages. If anything, Kroos was the one who had really shown that he deserved it.
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Re: Toni Kroos

Postby FCB general » Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:48 pm

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You won't change anything about him. Makes no sense to live in the past and keep whining about his departure. He's a great, world-class midfielder, Bayern didn't appreciate him enough and the end.
Cada loco con su tema.
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Re: Toni Kroos

Postby #12 » Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:36 pm

Sorry to all the Nolan fans
I like Memento, but I think the more mainstream he got, the worse his movies became... And some have errors in logic or are just too dumb at the end (Interstellar...)

Heanywahyy...

Kroos: we have much more stiff to worry about than a player who is lost forever... Our board is just like that...
JUPPJUPPJUPPJUPPJUPPJUPPJUPPJUPPJUPPJUPPJUPPJUPPJUPPJUPPJUPP
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Re: Toni Kroos

Postby Coman » Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:28 pm

Can't see tweet? Click here!

The most creative midfielder in Bayern history. 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
Bayern 3-3-3-1 build-up under Heynckes :
Neuer - Boateng Hummels Thiago - Kimmich Vidal Alaba - Robben Müller James - Lewandowski
Neuer- Boateng Vidal Hummels- Kimmich Martinez Alaba- Robben James Ribéry- Lewandowski
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Re: Toni Kroos

Postby pyrasur » Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:21 pm

We get it. He's the greatest. Absolutely the best. Really tremendous. We've been very unfair on him. Very very unfair. Believe me.

Bring back Kroos and MAKE BAYERN GREAT AGAIN. We will bring back Kroos and make Real Madrid pay for it.
而剑法的最高境界,则是手中无剑,心中也无剑,是以大胸怀,包容一切。那便是不杀,便是和平。-英雄
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Re: Toni Kroos

Postby Hardrade » Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:36 pm

Why so bitterly sarcastic? I mean I get it - whining is always a terrible coping mechanism, fairly common and not a very pleasant sight - but people will do it all the same. We can't change that.

...same goes for the past. Mistakes were made and will be made again, so we better get over Kroos, and lay this topic to rest.
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Re: Toni Kroos

Postby pyrasur » Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:56 pm

I'm bitterly sarcastic because I'm bored. I just thought I was being clever using the phrases Trump uses all the time and mimicking the way some of the people on this forum talk. Mostly I was trying to amuse people.

For the nth time. Kroos is a great player. Really great. He's got three CL medals. One of which he even managed to win from the sidelines injured. Good for him. But I'm tired of people constantly throwing it in our faces like he's the footballing Jesus or something. People keep acting like Bayern didn't offer him a hugely improved contract, or that Bayern didn't raise him from nothing and give him a huge amount of trust. Maybe we should have swallowed our pride or realized how **** we were getting by the Mario Götze deal and been huge pussies and given in and given him Mario Götze level money. But at the end of the day he turned US down so we allowed him to leave.

Honestly. Track record at Bayern. Heynckes trusted Kroos with the keys to the team in 11/12 and we lost to **** Chelsea, but we chalk that one up on our German coach taking out Thomas Müller in the 88th minute instead of possibly putting away a shit 6th place English team in the 88 minutes before that. 12/13 he gets injured and we win the CL. 13/14 he's again the key midfielder and we get blown away by Real Madrid but let's chalk that one up to our Spanish coach. It's **** easy to quarterback on Monday and say, "wow that Kroos fella we really should have paid the man" instead of looking at that and wondering who the fück this guy thinks he is to disrespect Bayern. But the only one who is allowed to do that is that Kate chick that had the crush on Toni and said back then we should keep him.

I mean I'm as guilty of selectively remembering facts as anyone, hence why I choose to ignore how successful we were right up until we got blown away by RM. But at least I selectively remember facts in order to remember something happy. Why half this forum has this masochistic need to shit on ourselves blows my mind every time.
而剑法的最高境界,则是手中无剑,心中也无剑,是以大胸怀,包容一切。那便是不杀,便是和平。-英雄
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Re: Toni Kroos

Postby sherpthederp » Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:05 am

Is there a way to put an entire thread on my blocked list as well? Talk about beating a dead horse, this thread has seen 10 new pages in the last month for a player who has already stated he won't return to Bayern...
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Re: Toni Kroos

Postby Effenberg777 » Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:21 am

pyrasur wrote:We get it. He's the greatest. Absolutely the best. Really tremendous. We've been very unfair on him. Very very unfair. Believe me.

Bring back Kroos and MAKE BAYERN GREAT AGAIN. We will bring back Kroos and make Real Madrid pay for it.


Hahahaha.
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Re: Toni Kroos

Postby FishBowl » Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:48 am

Jorge wrote:
And where did you read that anyone said that Kroos was "the best overall player"? All I said was that a player who scored the highest in the CPI for sure was consistent enough throughout the tournament to earn those numbers. The only purpose of bringing it up was to proof another poster's claim that Kroos "played only against the Brazilian boys", which is ridiculous since Kroos was also picked by the accredited press in the Best XI of the tournament and I can't think of any game where he performed below the team.

As for the CPI true that it gives a lot of weight to pass completion, but at the same time it penalizes heavily turnovers and mistakes, so it is a reliable reference to understand football beyond perception.


You are absolutely correct that no one said he was the best overall, I have just heard so many who typically are pro Kroos that he is the best. My apologies for implying that which was not said.

I agree he was no where near average, but having studied the CPI formulas in the past they are not as objective as one would wish to see. I improperly took my distaste for the CPI and let it run away with me on that post.

I do disagree that it is a reliable reference to understanding football beyond perception though. Just like any stat for any sport it can be used with qualitative data to help understand the full scope of a player, but due to the weighting of arbitrary "difficulty of opposition" coefficients as well as the blatant weighting of pass completion, and "significant passes" over other soccer plays like challenges and duels. I don't wish to get into CPI in detail in this thread, but I at least wanted to address your reply.

I agree Kroos was very good in the WC, and was certainly consistent throughout.
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