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Thomas Müller

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Re: Thomas Müller

Postby Manchu » Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:17 am

Firefox1234 wrote:Muller isn't going anywhere guys and hearing people talking like he is after one down season is truly shocking! This man has one blip season after scoring 20+ goals two seasons in a row and people are already talking like this?

You're completely correct. In fact, it's really funny how many misconceptions have appeared in the last few posts.

Muller and Thiago do not, in fact, inherently compete for positions. Thiago can play as a Number 10 and as a regista, while Muller can play as a Number 10 and as right mid(in all tactical systems that don't involve Xabi Alonso). They are both very good players at both positions, and there is no reason that Muller can't play in front of Thiago. In fact, many of Bayern's best games this season have come when Muller plays as attacking mid and Thiago plays defensive mid. Of course, playing as a regista is inherently less glorious for Thiago and he gets fewer goals and assists when he's that far back, but it's an essential task for the team.

Thiago has not necessarily shown he's better than Muller as a 10, either. In fact, he's hardly played there this season. He had one really good performance against Arsenal at home, but that's one game and not enough to really give a good judgement of his play at that position. I'm not criticizing Thiago, but I am saying that people seem to have some strange misconceptions about where he has mostly played this season.

Moreover, Muller's playing time has actually dramatically increased since the Winter Break. He's played the full 90 the last 7 Bundesliga games. It isn't like he's being shut out from the team, and the only person who's preventing him from starting Champions league matches too is Xabi Alonso, and Alonso's retiring. Muller's productivity has dramatically increased recently, he's getting more playing time, and he's practically guaranteed more playing time next season. There's no reason for him to leave to go to an inferior club to "revitalize" his career.

Finally, there's no evidence that Carlo Ancelotti is planning on replacing Muller with a proper 10 like James Rodriguez, and in fact there's considerable evidence that Ancelotti particularly likes Muller's unique skills as a player and will try to incorporate him into the future of the team:

Ancelotti has probably played with and coached more than 1000 players in his career and, after 40 years in the game, you don't expect surprises, players unlike any other. But then he met Thomas Muller. [source]


"He's atypical because he's a great forward with a totally unorthodox skill set," Ancelotti says. "We expect great forwards to be outstanding in terms of athleticism, technique or creativity. Those aren't his strengths, instead his strength is tactical. He reads the game; he has an ability to fill the right space at the right time. You don't associate that kind of tactical intelligence and awareness with attacking players, certainly not at this level. Sometimes you'll see it in defenders and midfielders. But for an attacking player it's hugely rare.

"When a coach notices a youngster with that tactical intelligence he generally moves him into the back line or midfield, because that's where tactical understanding matters more," he adds. "With Muller I guess that never happened. He played up front and he stayed up front."

And that unlocks a world of untapped potential. It's a question of how to best use him.

"I know it's a cliche, but he really can play anywhere," Ancelotti says. "Mueller will just do it in his own way and reinvent the position. It's funny, they criticised me in Germany because I played him out wide. The media said, 'Oh, but he's not a winger!'"

"Gee, really? I'm not stupid. I can see that he's not going to play wide in the way that Arjen Robben or Douglas Costa play wide. And I'm not going to ask him to try to imitate Robben or Costa. What he can do is use his intelligence to find the right positions on the pitch at the right time, starting from out wide. And that creates mismatches and helps the team."
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Re: Thomas Müller

Postby MUTU » Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:13 am

Weird that Ancelotti would be surprised with finding a forward who "reads the game" and "has an ability to fill the right space at the right time" when he coached a certain Inzaghi during his AC Milan days.
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Re: Thomas Müller

Postby Manchu » Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:28 am

MUTU wrote:Weird that Ancelotti would be surprised with finding a forward who "reads the game" and "has an ability to fill the right space at the right time" when he coached a certain Inzaghi during his AC Milan days.


To be honest, a lot of target forwards like Gerard Muller, Mario Gomez, El Chicharito and Miroslav Klose have strong positional senses and an ability to lose their markers as the cross is coming in. Inzaghi, brilliant as he was, was simply a continuation of this trend in many ways.
In his 18180 minutes for AC Milan, he had 126 goals but only 17 assists. [source]


Muller seems to be a far different player.
He's played 28789 minutes for Bayern, and has 158 goals and 132 assists. [source]


If Inzaghi dominated one aspect of the positional game, the finishing in the box, Muller seems to do much more.
Just look at his game against Hamburg this spring [source]
. Not only is he consistently getting unmarked and in a position to receive throughballs, he's also playing the ball off his feet immediately to the right players in the right place. For his assist to Alaba, he never even looks to his right; he just knows Alaba is there. In fact, in a couple cases Muller is passing the ball so fast and so unexpectedly that it looks there was a deflection off a defender.

Of course, if you want to learn more about Muller's unique positional awareness, you should watch
this video [source]
, particularly the second half of it. It shows that he might score goals like a target forward but he isn't just one.

Thus, I don't find Ancelotti's statement to be that puzzling. He is simply stating that Muller is far beyond any attacking player he has coached, including Inzaghi.

However, to be perfectly honest, I am actually quite surprised that Muller and Inzaghi don't get compared more often.
Last edited by Manchu on Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thomas Müller

Postby Firefox1234 » Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:58 pm

Manchu wrote:
MUTU wrote:Weird that Ancelotti would be surprised with finding a forward who "reads the game" and "has an ability to fill the right space at the right time" when he coached a certain Inzaghi during his AC Milan days.


To be honest, a lot of target forwards like Gerard Muller, Mario Gomez, El Chicharito and Miroslav Klose have strong positional senses and an ability to lose their markers as the cross is coming in. Inzaghi, brilliant as he was, was simply a continuation of this trend in many ways.
In his 18180 minutes for AC Milan, he had 126 goals but only 17 assists. [source]


Muller seems to be a far different player.
He's played 28789 minutes for Bayern, and has 158 goals and 132 assists. [source]


If Inzaghi dominated one aspect of the positional game, the finishing in the box, Muller seems to do much more.
Just look at his game against Hamburg this spring [source]
. Not only is he consistently getting unmarked and in a position to receive throughballs, he's also playing the ball off his feet immediately to the right players in the right place. For his assist to Alaba, he never even looks to his right; he just knows Alaba is there. In fact, in a couple cases Muller is passing the ball so fast and so unexpectedly that it looks there was a deflection off a defender.

Of course, if you want to learn more about Muller's unique positional awareness, you should watch
this video [source]
, particularly the second half of it. It shows that might score goals like a target forward but he isn't just one.

Thus, I don't find Ancelotti's statement to be that puzzling. He is simply stating that Muller is far beyond any attacking player he has coached, including Inzaghi.

However, to be perfectly honest, I am actually quite surprised that Muller and Inzaghi don't get compared more often.


This is an interesting point but I couldn't help but remember Sir Alex Ferguson's quote about Inzaghi "the lad was born offside". Inzaghi unlike Muller was a natural goal scorer but with very high positional awareness and not highly technical. Inzaghi channeled his skill sets towards being a goal scorer and freeing himself up to be in the best position to solely score goals. While Muller has always been more team oriented with his main focus being opening up space to find teammates to assist and eventually developing the ability score goals from the space he created himself. To sum it up the main difference between the two is Inzaghi was a natural goal scorer while Muller gained that ability through the years....
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Re: Thomas Müller

Postby Manchu » Sat Apr 01, 2017 5:13 am

Really great video that analysis Muller's playing style and tactical awareness.
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Re: Thomas Müller

Postby Coman » Sun Apr 02, 2017 6:42 pm

Ancelotti : "Thomas Müller does not need to play well to convince me. We are totally convinced of its quality. Of course, Bayern is a club where there is a lot of competition because I have the chance to have fantastic players at my disposal. It is not easy, but he played well as usual and I have confidence in him. He represents the present as well as the future of this club and this team. "

Time to see talks being act.
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Re: Thomas Müller

Postby MUTU » Sat Apr 08, 2017 7:52 pm

Wow his brother is so alike :lol:

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Re: Thomas Müller

Postby ramsej84 » Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:38 pm

MUTU wrote:Wow his brother is so alike

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Re: Thomas Müller

Postby JANCKER » Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:37 am

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Re: Thomas Müller

Postby JANCKER » Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:49 pm

Bayern ace Muller is so versatile he could play in goal - Makaay [source]
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Re: Thomas Müller

Postby pyrasur » Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:23 pm

aterford wrote: I love Müller and he's one of my favorite Bayern players of all time but for some reason recently he's become our sacred cow or something and has seemingly been immune to criticism from pretty much anyone. I get that #9 isn't his best position. Really, I do. But here's the thing: Top players simply find a way to impact the game. Truly TOP players will leave their mark even if they're not in their natural spot. Look at Kimmich last year at CB. We all know he's not a natural CB but he had some GREAT games playing as CB for us in a crisis spot. Going into the season I don't think many expected Kimmich to get significant minutes in any capacity, period. But he stepped up when he needed him to do so and without him we wouldn't have got nearly as far as he did. Now contrast that with Müller. Over the past twelve months, when has he stepped up when we needed him? I hate to say it but the answer is clear: he hasn't. Müller has been utterly terrible in all of our recent 'big' games.


I wanted to answer this here, because this is exactly where I stand. Müller will always have a place at Bayern for me because I respect what he's done in the past. I love his character, and I believe that one day he will come out of his slump. I would have kept Schweinsteiger too if Schweini had wanted to stay and not find a different experience abroad.

However, we have to deal with the reality that at THIS moment, Müller is not hacking it. It's great and all that he can put two past the Hamburg's of the league. But he's not delivering against the big teams, his technique has been terrible, and I am tired of hearing "he is only effective if he has Lewandowski in front of him to do the work" or "he's not a #9" or "it's another player's fault". And I am angry with the rest of the team, imo Thiago faded too much when we went a man down.

Müller is supposed to be one of our top players and he NEEDS to find a way to make a difference no matter if he has all these excuses. I recognize their validity, I know he's "not a #9" but, like Aterford says, a top player does SOMETHING and Müller is just not doing anything. I'm upset because I know Müller is better than this. And I will cut him a little slack because if he's supposed to be our backup, there is ZERO reason Carlo should wait until Real Madrid to try Müller up front. If I'm Müller's coach I tell him he CAN do this, what's done is done and he needs to focus on delivering in he next game. But as a fan if he is selected against Real again I really hope that last performance motivates him to do something more. It's sad that he's so versatile that he's "neither a striker nor a midfielder", but in the position he's in where the team needs him to fill a role and his starting position is now in question, he needs to find a way to deliver.
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Re: Thomas Müller

Postby Thiagoalcantara » Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:37 pm

In England and Spain, many folks always said Muller was overrated especially when United were willing to spend like 70m or so on him last season.

Could be tactics, but also, Muller isn't exactly young for an attacker and he has started his career relatively young. Many of the players that were overused at a young age really dont have a long career.

My thing with Muller is if his workrate has declined, his whole game has declined as well. Some guys are very good players because of their workrate, especially CMs. However, Muller I think falls in the same category as those guys. Attackers with immense workrate. If you think about it, usually wingers or CAMs are the most technical players on the pitch, Muller is definitely not what I consider a good technician.

Rooney was a good technical player, but his workrate was immense for an attacker. However, if you followed his career, you saw how much he declined because of his workrate killing his body. Even though I think he's UNited number 1 goalscorer, he has become public enemy number 1 for United fans.

Oscar of chelsea and brazil. Oscar started for brazil at a young age getting the number 10 for Brazil and the CAM role over Juan mata at Chelsea. He had very solid overall game, however, once his workrate started to decline, his whole game began to be questioned in England. and Oscar only like 25 or so right now.

If you take into consideration that Muller started very young for Germany and bayern, plus the way he plays the amount of energy would probably be equivalent to 2 games and his body structure, or lack of. His decline doesnt surprise me honestly. Workrate is great to have, but it takes a toll on you eventually unless your build for it like Vidal is.

Guys like Oscar, Rooney and Muller were definitely not build for it imo
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Re: Thomas Müller

Postby aterford » Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:20 pm

pyrasur wrote:But he's not delivering against the big teams, his technique has been terrible, and I am tired of hearing "he is only effective if he has Lewandowski in front of him to do the work" or "he's not a #9" or "it's another player's fault"..... It's sad that he's so versatile that he's "neither a striker nor a midfielder", but in the position he's in where the team needs him to fill a role and his starting position is now in question, he needs to find a way to deliver.


This is a big part of it for me. We need to listen to ourselves. "Müller just wasn't effective because he didn't have Lewandowski in front of him" or "Müller needs another true striker to effectively work off the ball"

I'm sorry, but how many other players get these excuses? If I said "Xabi Alonso only had a bad game because he didn't have Vidal next to him to cover more defensive duties" I promise you NOBODY would give Alonso a pass. If I said "Costa had a bad game because Alaba wasn't making his overlapping runs correctly" again NOBODY would buy that sort of excuse. It's simply ridiculous to be expected to make these sort of accommodations for one player. Look, like I said, I love Müller, but he should NOT be treated differently than any other player, he should NOT be held to any other standard (if anything, he should be held to a higher standard as we know what he's capable of), he shouldn't be granted excuses where others wouldn't be, he shouldn't be able to pass off bad performances as a result of other players or variations in formation or position. Look at the last year as whole. Müller had a poor end to the season under Guardiola. He was bad in the Euros and has generally underperformed under Ancelotti. Does position and tactics have something to do with it? Of course it does. But at some point you have to realize the common denominator here is the player. I don't think Müller's lost the ability but as I've said a hundred times before there's something mentally off with him that he's been unable to get over. Perhaps he needs to see a psychologist or something and get sorted out. At this point I'm not sure what more Carlo and the team can do for him. They can't be expected to move mountains simply to make things work for Müller. As bad as it sounds, the interest of the team has to come first. If that means leaving Müller on the bench because it allows other players who are performing well to have an impact on games, then that's that. I hate to sound so harsh but right now the fact of the matter is this: Müller simply hasn't been delivering when it matters and right now I don't think there's any reason to trust him in big games. Would love for him to prove me wrong but if the last year's been any indication I'm not going to hold my breath.
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Re: Thomas Müller

Postby #12 » Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:15 pm

Erm sorry, we've had that discussion like 50 times here regarding Alonso... All of those times people were marked as "haters" or worse...
The real thing is this: Müller was not world class lately... For a while... Yet when he was played in position, it's not like he was shit either! He was decent... So the real question is: would you judge Alonso or any other player the same way you judge Müller had it been Them who had to play there for the first time in ages, and maybe like 15th time overall?
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Re: Thomas Müller

Postby Bentonomo » Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:33 pm

He has been bad and unlucky. But how many times did he play in his position (midfielder) ??
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