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Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

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Re: Bastian Schweinsteiger

Postby endrity » Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:43 pm

runaway wrote:(somebody move this replies to a proper thread maybe a 2013/2014 season review thread coz we had this convo before from every thread especially Pep's :lol:)

But Heynckes had the luck of having only 1 (2 because of Badstuber) seriously injured player. Our players last season had been in and out of injury. Even Lahm got a knock. That said, semis ain't enough?

Seriously why have astronomical expectations? This ain't a video game and in real life, shit happens. :coffee:

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If Real would have beat us like we defeated them in 2012, I guess most would not be pissed of.

Shit didn't just happen is what most people are trying to say I think. We really were extremely poor and completely lost for ideas in those two games (and some others during that period).
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby Der Bomber » Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:44 pm

JANCKER wrote:A coach that needs instructions on how to line-up a squad, or how to use a player... is he a goddamn amateur, really? Is that really what you think?
You are gonna make his success bigger, after he proves all your criticism wrong.


Would you have fielded Rafinha vs Ronaldo? Would you field Van Buyten vs Suarez? The list could go on for a while. My point is that certain players can be effective when used properly (vs players he can manage) but I firmly believe that Rafinha was used too much last season & you could see that most of the chances on goal came from the right. I am not saying that Pep is a bad coach nor call him an amateur, that's grossly exaggerating my statement, I just mean that Pep might've put too much faith in a player that was out of his depth in numerous situations because of it last season. It happened to many coaches in the past & that doesn't mean that they are not goood coaches.

He wanted Lahm in the midfield which automatically made Rafinha a starter at RB. He might've made the center of the field more stable but the right side was very vulnerable. We'll never know if the team would've been better with Martinez in the middle & Lahm in the back where he belongs since Javi might not be the type of player that he sees as a DM in the setup he wanted last season but i'd like to believe so.
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Re: Bastian Schweinsteiger

Postby runaway » Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:45 pm

I was alluding to Murphy's law: Shit hapens.

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Re: Bastian Schweinsteiger

Postby JANCKER » Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:48 pm

endrity wrote:
Ottomeister13 wrote:Who's problem is it that Dortmund players are injured? Bayerns? They could care less, what should they do, just wait and lose on purpose untill BvB players are back in the squad so they don't have to much points @ first place? :S

And i am really sick and tired to hang the whole last season on those 2 shitty games against Madrid. As if those games make up the balance for the whole season. Everyone already forgot who was in the CL final 2010? 2012? 2013? and in 2014 semi finals. Djeez, this is really world class whining. Would anyone try to get me sign a contract like that with those achievements before 2010, i would have signed blindly.

Some ''fans'' should stop being so spoiled, you can't win the treble every year, you can't win the CL every year, nobody has defended the title so far anyway.


Because context matters. We did not get simply beat. We got humiliated as if we did not even deserve to be on the same pitch as Real Madrid. This came on the back of a year where Bayern were perfect, absolutely perfect, and everyone was hailing them as the ultimate team with no weaknesses.

In addition, the loss against Madrid was just part of a 3 month stretch where by and large the team looked awful.

To conclude, a lot of us can see what is going on on the field. We might not be master tacticians, but we can still look at some of teams and formations that Pep is throwing out there and scratch out head. Re-inventing the wheel is not why Pep was brought here. He was brought to keep a well-oiled machine ticking. At this point it's a combination of pride (not wanting to just keep doing what Jupp was doing) and insecurity (how can he play without a Xavi in midfield) that is bringing him down I think.


Can that lead to complacency?
We've been beaten by smaller teams at that time of the season, not only by RM. Before that we were crushing opponents like cockroaches.
That's the problem, you see them as machines not as humans...
And btw we're off-topic.
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Re: Bastian Schweinsteiger

Postby endrity » Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:50 pm

runaway wrote:I was alluding to Murphy's law: Shit hapens.

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Murphy's law is based on the idea of chance. There is some chance that weird score will happen in some games, and some times it does. If you play that game over and over again however, it most likely would not end in similar fashion - is what Murphy's law is, I think.

On the other hand, you could have played that Real - Bayern game ten times, and we get humiliated nine. That's not chance anymore.
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Re: Bastian Schweinsteiger

Postby MoFattal » Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:54 pm

endrity wrote:

In addition, the loss against Madrid was just part of a 3 month stretch where by and large the team looked awful.

.


Well that is what moves the fault scale towards the players. Before this period, everything was okay and Pep's "crazy destructive" ideas/tactics were working just fine.

So, when we were beating the hell out of oppenents before mid-season and then suddenly started losing/drawing against the same "easy" opponents in the return, it's only because of Pep and not the players, eventhough nothing changed in terms of tactics/formation. Where's the sense in that?!

I'm sorry, but I'll take Pep's side on this one. He did some mistakes and was man enough to admit, but the players were at least as much as wrong as he was.
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Re: Bastian Schweinsteiger

Postby endrity » Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:56 pm

JANCKER wrote:
endrity wrote:
Ottomeister13 wrote:Who's problem is it that Dortmund players are injured? Bayerns? They could care less, what should they do, just wait and lose on purpose untill BvB players are back in the squad so they don't have to much points @ first place? :S

And i am really sick and tired to hang the whole last season on those 2 shitty games against Madrid. As if those games make up the balance for the whole season. Everyone already forgot who was in the CL final 2010? 2012? 2013? and in 2014 semi finals. Djeez, this is really world class whining. Would anyone try to get me sign a contract like that with those achievements before 2010, i would have signed blindly.

Some ''fans'' should stop being so spoiled, you can't win the treble every year, you can't win the CL every year, nobody has defended the title so far anyway.


Because context matters. We did not get simply beat. We got humiliated as if we did not even deserve to be on the same pitch as Real Madrid. This came on the back of a year where Bayern were perfect, absolutely perfect, and everyone was hailing them as the ultimate team with no weaknesses.

In addition, the loss against Madrid was just part of a 3 month stretch where by and large the team looked awful.

To conclude, a lot of us can see what is going on on the field. We might not be master tacticians, but we can still look at some of teams and formations that Pep is throwing out there and scratch out head. Re-inventing the wheel is not why Pep was brought here. He was brought to keep a well-oiled machine ticking. At this point it's a combination of pride (not wanting to just keep doing what Jupp was doing) and insecurity (how can he play without a Xavi in midfield) that is bringing him down I think.


Can that lead to complacency?
We've been beaten by smaller teams at that time of the season, not only by RM. Before that we were crushing opponents like cockroaches.
That's the problem, you see them as machines not as humans...
And btw we're off-topic.


It certainly can. And that's why at the end of the day, everyone, including the fans, were more than willing to give Pep more time. No one was sure of what to make of those final three months of the season.

My personal opinion though is that the problem is deeper. I don't want to sound like a broken record because I have written this a few times in various threads here, but Guardiola either goes back to basics with us or he should leave at the end of the season. There is no point wasting the last couple of good years from Schweini-Lahm-Robben-Ribery while pursuing football purity with 3-4-3 and sideway passes.

One last thing, as you are right that we are off topic. I was never angry at Jupp after 2012. Yes he could have done a few more things differently looking back, but it also seemed like just a bit of luck did not go our way. I saw a strategy and an idea of how the team should play, and there was no reason to change coach I thought, never expecting a treble anyway. And that's it from me.
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Re: Bastian Schweinsteiger

Postby endrity » Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:00 pm

MoFattal wrote:
endrity wrote:

In addition, the loss against Madrid was just part of a 3 month stretch where by and large the team looked awful.

.


Well that is what moves the fault scale towards the players. Before this period, everything was okay and Pep's "crazy destructive" ideas/tactics were working just fine.

So, when we were beating the hell out of oppenents before mid-season and then suddenly started losing/drawing against the same "easy" opponents in the return, it's only because of Pep and not the players, eventhough nothing changed in terms of tactics/formation. Where's the sense in that?!

I'm sorry, but I'll take Pep's side on this one. He did some mistakes and was man enough to admit, but the players were at least as much as wrong as he was.


He's actually admitted no mistakes, he's still playing weird as f*** formations with players completely out of position. He also said that this year we would keep the ball even more (which is what always did at Barca when he felt threatened) and that he adapted too much to the team last year.

I am personally undecided on the player v. coach issue, so I won't comment as of now. I suspect it's Pep more than the players, but one season is not enough to judge, I agree. Now I am really done! :)
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Re: Bastian Schweinsteiger

Postby MoFattal » Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:11 pm

Of course he wants to keep more of the ball, but that doesn't mean that he will not change our attackig strategy in a way to be more efficient in front of goal. Keeping the ball and creating chances are not antonyms. And the 3-4-3 looks like his solution to relate those two concepts together. On paper, I agree. Let's give him a couple of month and not get back to chasing his arse with every narrow win (because we won't lose) we get in the early season.
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby JANCKER » Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:26 pm

Der Bomber wrote:
JANCKER wrote:A coach that needs instructions on how to line-up a squad, or how to use a player... is he a goddamn amateur, really? Is that really what you think?
You are gonna make his success bigger, after he proves all your criticism wrong.


Would you have fielded Rafinha vs Ronaldo? Would you field Van Buyten vs Suarez? The list could go on for a while. My point is that certain players can be effective when used properly (vs players he can manage) but I firmly believe that Rafinha was used too much last season & you could see that most of the chances on goal came from the right. I am not saying that Pep is a bad coach nor call him an amateur, that's grossly exaggerating my statement, I just mean that Pep might've put too much faith in a player that was out of his depth in numerous situations because of it last season. It happened to many coaches in the past & that doesn't mean that they are not goood coaches.

He wanted Lahm in the midfield which automatically made Rafinha a starter at RB. He might've made the center of the field more stable but the right side was very vulnerable. We'll never know if the team would've been better with Martinez in the middle & Lahm in the back where he belongs since Javi might not be the type of player that he sees as a DM in the setup he wanted last season but i'd like to believe so.


Made the right side more vulnerable for all we know about football, but I have to trust him cause I'm no expert. And I wasn't directing the post to you. Yes, we're used to see Lahm at RB, and he has guts to play him elsewhere, I don't believe he did it for a bad cause. Because some went that far and made a conspiracy out of it.
And I believe when we started to notice our defense weaknesses wasn't about our defense at all, cause Neuer had games when he needed to warm up with bench players to stay in the game. Things weren't functioning quiet well up front(when I say front, I mean midfield too), and so our defense had to deal with more than they're used to. Lahm wasted in midfield? I don't believe that, he's been working there more than ever, IMO he is more wasted at RB with less work.
I would have fielded Rafinha vs Penaldo, (what a scary name 'Ronaldo' is, because it associates with the brazilian)he scored when Lahm was RB back in 2012, didn't help much. I've seen worst than Rafinha stop Ronaldo, Penaldo is the most dangerous when shooting penalties, and for that we got Neuer.
Our system is to gain back the ball as soon as we lose it, not to wait in the box, I didn't see that determination and incisiveness from the players I've seen a year ago, is that Pep's fault? Or human nature?
Every time the same story, a team loses then defense is shit, a coach is shit, etc, but it goes in that pecking order of blame, sometimes second choice is defense, forgetting they're not the only part of the team, that's more like an automatic brain function to find a justification for everything even if it doesn't make sense, I read it somewhere or heard of.

Here it is:
Choice Justification and Cognitive Dissonance When people decide on an important issue by choosing one course of action over its alternatives, they often justify and rationalize the choice by appraising the chosen option as more desirable and likable and the rejected options as less so even when the two options were 3 appraised equally desirable and likable before the decision. This phenomenon is called choice justification. [source]


As a fan I want to win everything that there is to win, but we're forgetting that we're not playing this game alone and sometimes someone else has a 'stronger hand' and wins. And goes on... I don't know if there is a team that wins every year even in North Korea, we're the closest thing to dictatorship.
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Re: Bastian Schweinsteiger

Postby runaway » Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:32 pm

It's too early for me to have this unending convo again. So we failed against RM last season. This is life...reality. We can't win every game all the time. Not evey game, we'll have the better or perfect outcome. As I already said: In life, shit happens. Even if you have everything in this world, shit will happen and we'll just have to man up, take it and move forward ala 2012.

If in sports, the best team always wins, what's the point? Where's the excitement? Betting would not be a business.

P.S People should really stop playing football manager. Experts all around.

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Re: Bastian Schweinsteiger

Postby josh.whelan.56 » Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:28 am

runaway wrote:It's too early for me to have this unending convo again. So we failed against RM last season. This is life...reality. We can't win every game all the time. Not evey game, we'll have the better or perfect outcome. As I already said: In life, shit happens. Even if you have everything in this world, shit will happen and we'll just have to man up, take it and move forward ala 2012.

If in sports, the best team always wins, what's the point? Where's the excitement? Betting would not be a business.

P.S People should really stop playing football manager. Experts all around.

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I agree but I will never stop playing Football Manager :p


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Re: Bastian Schweinsteiger

Postby JANCKER » Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:34 am

endrity wrote:In addition, the loss against Madrid was just part of a 3 month stretch where by and large the team looked awful.


I wonder if the German wolf pack were thinking in that period more about Die Nationalmannschaft than Bayern. That was something they wanted more than winning the CL again, and for some of them it was their last chance, and they won it.
I consider Germany's success as Bayern's, therefore Bayern is still successful internationally.
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Re: Bastian Schweinsteiger

Postby German-American » Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:41 am

theundead wrote:
German-American wrote:I'd rather have jupp


Jupp retired aged 68 as a treble winning coach. Let the old man rest now.



Yes, but I mean that I'd rather have somebody like him
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Re: Bastian Schweinsteiger

Postby German-American » Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:56 am

[/list][/list][/list][/list][/list][/list][/list][/list][/code]
endrity wrote:
runaway wrote:(somebody move this replies to a proper thread maybe a 2013/2014 season review thread coz we had this convo before from every thread especially Pep's :lol:)

But Heynckes had the luck of having only 1 (2 because of Badstuber) seriously injured player. Our players last season had been in and out of injury. Even Lahm got a knock. That said, semis ain't enough?

Seriously why have astronomical expectations? This ain't a video game and in real life, shit happens. :coffee:

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If Real would have beat us like we defeated them in 2012, I guess most would not be pissed of.

Shit didn't just happen is what most people are trying to say I think. We really were extremely poor and completely lost for ideas in those two games (and some others during that period).





Exactly!!!!! we were decimated in the Semifinal, and when we played Man utd we looked half ass. Im not saying that Pep's style will never fit here, but he can't expect face's of Bayern (lahm, Schwein, Muller, etc...) to magically adjust. When Pep arrived he said
"I need to adjust to the players, not the other way around," "Football belongs to the players, not to the coach. I will have to adapt." "
Clearly he is not adapting, getting rid of 1-2 and adding some is normal and expected, but if you start making comments like he did about Schweinsteiger then it is SO clear that he isn't living up to what he said

Can somebody move this to another thread, possibly make a new one? I would but I don't know how to

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