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Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby Dumbledore7 » Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:25 pm

@RedQueen

[Edit: Yes, as pyrasaur pointed out, I meant to say that Kroos is Kroos whether he's in Madrid or Munich, also same with Schweinsteiger of course. Sorry I wasn't clear enough.]

What I can remember from the WC final are an underperforming Kroos and an outstanding Schweinsteiger. Fast forward 2 years, the latter would have become a spent force, having won a World Cup, becoming much older and crippled with even more injuries. When there's a decline in the team, I'm not sure I can attribute this simply to players being in different teams.

Well first off, I'm sure you'll appreciate that losing Lahm doesn't just mean losing one quality player. You're talking about one of the best players the world has ever seen. Secondly, simply by looking at the teamsheet during and after the World Cup, yes, I'm absolutely sure there's a loss in quality. Germany were never a complete team (lacked a top LB during the World Cup), but no other team were; Spain and Brazil were lacking a striker, Argentina lacking a midfield and I can go on. Euro 2016 will be a hell lot more difficult based on overall quality alone.

I acknowledge that players playing together more often would make a difference, yes, but we're talking about people who are meant to be world class football players and a WC-winning coach. They have to figure the damn thing out. A simple "Basti is in decline" would've been a better excuse than a "Bayern block" waffle.

I perfectly believe that people can say Pep's tenure at Bayern would have a definite effect on the German NT. It's something you can easily have a discussion about, whether you agree or not. You're one of the more intelligent people in this forum and you didn't say it yourself explicitly, so I hope you don't really agree with JANCKER's "it's all Pep's fault" bullshit?
Last edited by Dumbledore7 on Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby bastos80 » Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:32 pm

I may remind you this is the "Pep Guardiola" Thread and not a discussion thread about whether blocks are needed or not :lol:
If you seriously blame Pep for Kroos' departure or claim Schweinsteiger not playing at Bayern anymore will be a reason for Germany's failure then you're seriously an idiot. Sorry.
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby DRvad14 » Mon Dec 28, 2015 11:47 pm

"He hasn't said anything to me," Orobitg said. "In any case, it's not something that we are considering at the moment. The Premier League is a big possibility.

"Pep will make a decision in two or three months' time. Everything remains a possibility, including a sabbatical year."



http://www.espnfc.us/paris-saint-germain/story/2772652/pep-guardiola-agent-denies-having-talks-with-psg-president
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby #12 » Tue Dec 29, 2015 12:37 am

PunkCapitalist wrote:Fees the troll do not.


I miss Yoda :(

German NT in decline? Wait for it! We are a Turniermannschaft :P :D

Back to the Pepster :P - in a way...

The whole thing has become a business, there's no denying it, there probably is no way back...
But still, at least Bayern are a club with history that made their money on their own...
Those BIG4 would be big no one by now, because let's face it, who knew Chelski and Shitty even existed before? ManUre sucks and Arsenal was never big anyways... :P
So yeah, I don't think there are many positions in the world that expose anyone of hating this game and only working for the sake of their own wallet any more than that of coach of City...
Thanks for nothing, :pep: !!
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby RedQueen » Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:54 am

Dumbledore7 wrote:What I can remember from the WC final are an underperforming Kroos and an outstanding Schweinsteiger. Fast forward 2 years, the latter would have become a spent force, having won a World Cup, becoming much older and crippled with even more injuries. When there's a decline in the team, I'm not sure I can attribute this simply to players being in different teams.

That's not the only factor, obviously, but one of the factors.

Well first off, I'm sure you'll appreciate that losing Lahm doesn't just mean losing one quality player. You're talking about one of the best players the world has ever seen. Secondly, simply by looking at the teamsheet during and after the World Cup, yes, I'm absolutely sure there's a loss in quality. Germany were never a complete team (lacked a top LB during the World Cup), but no other team were; Spain and Brazil were lacking a striker, Argentina lacking a midfield and I can go on. Euro 2016 will be a hell lot more difficult based on overall quality alone.

Well, then who exactly do you mean that is responsible for that decline in quality? I already mentioned Lahm as the obvious exception, but Mertesacker, whom Löw even dropped in the last games, isn't that big a loss, especially given how well Mustafi has developed lately. So there remains Klose who was 36, and as far as I recall didn't play a single game over 90 minutes. We're still lacking a striker, obviously, but on the other hand we got Reus back in the attack, and Gündogan in midfield. Not to mention Özil who's playing a class better right now than in summer 2014. Yes, there's Schweinsteiger... people had written him off before the WC already. He's two years older (but it seems less injured) but that doesn't mean he won't throw it all in when it matters most again. Other than the Lahm-shaped hole at RB, I don't see where's the significant drop in quality.

I acknowledge that players playing together more often would make a difference, yes, but we're talking about people who are meant to be world class football players and a WC-winning coach. They have to figure the damn thing out. A simple "Basti is in decline" would've been a better excuse than a "Bayern block" waffle.

And they will figure it out, once they finally have three weeks of training together. Again, what many Löw critics are overlooking, since the WC so far they never had more than two or three days and most of the times there were at least three or four key players missing. That is a problem, especially if you're planning to implement new formations and tactical means, as Löw is. It can't be done at the desk and with the laptop, it takes time to train the routines.

I perfectly believe that people can say Pep's tenure at Bayern would have a definite effect on the German NT. It's something you can easily have a discussion about, whether you agree or not. You're one of the more intelligent people in this forum and you didn't say it yourself explicitly, so I hope you don't really agree with JANCKER's "it's all Pep's fault" bullshit?

No, the influence was definitely there. Whether it was always a positive influence is another question. For example, that suicidal high line Löw played against Algeria, even though Mertesacker and Höwedes were far too slow and Mustafi too inexperienced, was definitely something that was influenced by Pep's style of play. I'm not making Pep responsible for Löw's decision to play that way in that game despite lacking the players, just to clarify. After all he wasn't actively involved in it. But the admiration Löw has for Guardiola has influenced his decision making - sometimes but, as this example shows not always, for the benefit of the team.
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby Dumbledore7 » Tue Dec 29, 2015 11:16 am

I totally agree with most of your post, but I'd like to add to the discussion on German's quality. You see, you're attempting to quantify these losses with hard figures on how many players Germany lost or gained (we're heading towards a Germany discussion now so mods, do as you please).

We still don't even know who the RB is so it's difficult to even assess how much of Lahm the team lost, then there's the LB position for which the players are all mediocre. Schweini is in decline and Khedira still figuring out how to get back to his best. On top of that, the midfield is so overloaded with quality that probably only a Pep Guardiola can make full use of the players. Reus is yet to play a major role in Germany's competition and Schürrle is pretty much a bad player. Götze needs to be on the pitch, but no one knows where he should play and Müller being the main man is a problem, although fortunately becoming less so with time.

Basically, I'm of the opinion that the WC-winning team outclasses the current one. Bar some extraordinary exception, the only way to win an international tournament is simply by fielding your 11 best players and being the best team overall (check the past few tournaments, barring Greece's freak 2004). I'm sorry to say that from what I'm seeing, what Germany's doing in the qualifiers is neither of those. The best and most deserving team nearly always win international tournaments, which is often not the case in domestic football so I hope they figure it out.
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby RedQueen » Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:38 pm

I think you're overly pessimistic. Schürrle wasn't a better player in summer 2014 as he is now, and yet he made crucial contributions (scored the goal that gave us the lead against Algeria, provided the assist for Götze's WC winning goal). Schweinsteiger, Lahm, Khedira, Neuer all went into the tournament with injuries. For a reminder, how Germany's chances were seen:

Why Joachim Low Should Get a Free Pass with Germany at the World Cup | B/R

Germany's Best World Cup Alternatives to Injured Key Players | B/R

Yes, we don't yet know who the RB will be. When the players drove to the training camp for WC 2014, we not only didn't know who the RB would be, we also didn't know who the goalkeeper would be. Because it was far from certain that either Lahm or Neuer would be able to play, or if they'd be able to play, how fit they would be. Even with both fit, we had no LB. Hector, or maybe Badstuber if he's fit, are both better options than Höwedes was back then, who's bascially never played that position before. Even Höwedes is now a better option than he was back then. So now we have a problem with the RB. But so far that's the only real problem we have. Volland, Kruse, maybe even Sane or Gomez, who seems to get back into form at Besiktas - how much of a drop in quality are they compared to a 36 year old Klose? Who knows, in half a years time with Schürrle, Draxler and Kruse people might start to talk about "the Wolfsburg block".

I'm not claiming there aren't any problems, but what team doesn't have its problems? France will be without Benzema, for example. Spain is a team in transition as Germany is. Belgium, I simply don't trust Wilmot to build a working team. We're not the big favorites right now, but that might be an advantage, actually. If the current team is fit in summer, I'm not too worried. I'm more worried of being hit with an injury streak again.

FWIW, I think they should consider calling Rode up. He's the type of fighter player they have to replace with Schweini in decline. I know they're hoping for Can to evolve into that role, but he's not yet there. Pity that Kampl plays for Slovenia. He probably thought he wouldn't stand a chance to get into the German team, but we could really use him now.
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby bastos80 » Tue Dec 29, 2015 9:24 pm

Would you tell me what exactly is speaking for Rode and against Can, if Can "is not yet there" ?
Rode is ? Emre Can is a regular for Liverpool while Rode is getting minutes in garbage time or against Darmstadt & Co.
Anyways I think Gündogan and Kroos will be there long enough when Schweinsteiger is gone.
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Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby pyrasur » Tue Dec 29, 2015 9:39 pm

I'm going to give RedQueen a pass because she seems so German to me, but for the last time for non Americans out there Bleacher Report and Clark Whitney are not good references. Especially for football. It's like someone referencing me on why Guardiola is awesome. Whitney is not a journalist, he's just some person with an obvious opinion. And shit like this is why his viewership never dips below 100.

I'd rather go to Bayern Central for that dude from Canada's opinion, which I can't believe Deutsche Welle's people follow. I don't even know if that guy ever played more than five a side.


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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby tflags » Tue Dec 29, 2015 9:53 pm

The bleacher report? I mean, really?
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby RedQueen » Tue Dec 29, 2015 9:59 pm

bastos80 wrote:Would you tell me what exactly is speaking for Rode and against Can, if Can "is not yet there" ?
Rode is ? Emre Can is a regular for Liverpool while Rode is getting minutes in garbage time or against Darmstadt & Co.

Can simply hasn't convinced me in his performances for Germany, hence I think it would be worthwhile giving Rode a shot. There are at least four friendlies left, where's the harm in giving him a shot?

Anyways I think Gündogan and Kroos will be there long enough when Schweinsteiger is gone.

I don't think they are a suitable replacement, for the reason I've already explained. No matter how much better they might be on a technical level, they lack the fighter mentality.

@pyrasur

I really don't care what "Americans" consider "good references" (and before someone starts complaining or crying "racism", that would be the same if it were British, French, Italians or Germans who don't consider a source " good reference").

I realize Whitney isn't rated here, but I find his articles spot on quite frequently. As I do in this case. Of course I could try to find the German articles that said more or less the same. Except that would require me to invest more time, and many readers here can't read German.

Exactly what is it about those two articles that you find untenable? Apart from them having been published by B/R.
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby ramsej84 » Tue Dec 29, 2015 10:18 pm

i am watching Lei v MC on skysport1 and the comm is asking the viewers something about Pep to ManC. What the hell is he asking? some help pls:smile:

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Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby pyrasur » Tue Dec 29, 2015 11:52 pm

RedQueen wrote:
@pyrasur

I really don't care what "Americans" consider "good references" (and before someone starts complaining or crying "racism", that would be the same if it were British, French, Italians or Germans who don't consider a source " good reference").

I realize Whitney isn't rated here, but I find his articles spot on quite frequently. As I do in this case. Of course I could try to find the German articles that said more or less the same. Except that would require me to invest more time, and many readers here can't read German.

Exactly what is it about those two articles that you find untenable? Apart from them having been published by B/R.


I was merely pointing out for non Americans that BR is pretty bad considering it's (I assume) an American site. I assume you are German so I assume you aren't familiar with its reputation.

And my problem with Whitney isn't the crap he writes. Most Bayern fans have known for a long time he's biased, though I could be saying that because the crap he writes disagrees with me, and maybe you don't think he's biased because he agrees with you. Nevertheless his posts to that site (which is nothing more that a blog imho) are nothing more than opinion. My problem is people treat his opinion like its journalism or that it's proof of something.

I don't really disagree with anything he says in that article. Löw won the World Cup despite missing Reus and Gündogan which is impressive. My point is would Whitney give the same free pass to other managers? particularly those Whitney has it out for? Again I wouldn't care about his opinion except that people like you reference it. My mother thought Germany wouldn't win the world cup either now you have the opinion of two random people no one should give a shit about.


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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby RedQueen » Wed Dec 30, 2015 9:54 am

pyrasur wrote:I was merely pointing out for non Americans that BR is pretty bad considering it's (I assume) an American site. I assume you are German so I assume you aren't familiar with its reputation.

I know they aren't rated by many people (although I don't really understand why; they seem quite the mixed bag, I've seen both terrible articles and very good ones. They don't seem any worse than many other sports site are).

The problem that writers mix their own opinion with facts is a common one these days. Der Spiegel for example isn't capable of writing an article without imposing on everyone their opinion. That's rather worse, because they sell their articles as "reports", while B/R nowhere claim that theirs are anything else but commentaries (and I don't know what's illegitimate about writing a commentary, as long as it's obvious it is a commentary). I didn't link the articles because of the opinions, though, but because there aren't too many publications that report on German (or French or Italien, actually almost everything besides British) international football in English, giving news with any kind of detailed information (which they do, especially the 2nd one, by Nyari). There's ESPNFC (which isn't rated by many people either - actually I think they're sometimes much worse than B/R), there's B/R. Sky, Fox etc. focus more on club football, and usually don't give that kind of detailed information. If you can refer me to a better source, that would be very welcome.
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby quaazi » Wed Dec 30, 2015 11:40 am

Whitney's verbal diarrhea is the very definition of journalistic clickbait. No wonder Bleacherreport eats his shit up.
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