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Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby #12 » Wed Sep 16, 2015 10:10 pm

Ottmar is the best coach ever! Followed by Udo Lattek... Just sayin'
Thanks for nothing, :pep: !!
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby prasun77 » Thu Sep 17, 2015 6:22 am

#12 wrote:Ottmar is the best coach ever! Followed by Udo Lattek... Just sayin'


yup but that is in a parallel universe..where jupp doesn't exist! :wink:
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby endrity » Thu Sep 17, 2015 8:51 am

This Alonso business is going to cost him big time by the end of the season again. That, and the inability to draw something from Gotze. I focused a lot on Alonso while watching the game yesterday, and I am sure a good team would have ripped right through him yesterday. As majestic as his passing is, he is quite clearly in my view on his absolute last legs physically and a team with more composure and skill could have easily bypassed him. Olympiacos had enough openings to do so.

I continue to believe that Pep won too much too soon due to a some incredible circumstances at Barca, where he played a huge role but where other factors also heavily influenced his success. This incredible success has made him too inflexible in his beliefs and I think it will cost him going forward in his career. He won't have a Xavi-Iniesta-Messi package ever again to rely on
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby Dumbledore7 » Thu Sep 17, 2015 9:25 am

endrity wrote:This Alonso business is going to cost him big time by the end of the season again. That, and the inability to draw something from Gotze. I focused a lot on Alonso while watching the game yesterday, and I am sure a good team would have ripped right through him yesterday. As majestic as his passing is, he is quite clearly in my view on his absolute last legs physically and a team with more composure and skill could have easily bypassed him. Olympiacos had enough openings to do so.

I continue to believe that Pep won too much too soon due to a some incredible circumstances at Barca, where he played a huge role but where other factors also heavily influenced his success. This incredible success has made him too inflexible in his beliefs and I think it will cost him going forward in his career. He won't have a Xavi-Iniesta-Messi package ever again to rely on


For the record, I don't like Alonso either but really what was the alternative, and is this really warranted after his performance yesterday? Javi aside, who at this point I'm not even sure if he really is fit or just sits on the bench to fill quota, we have no one else experienced enough to cover that position. Vidal is in no way a defensive midfielder either (on top of that, he was not better than Alonso last night) and Kimmich was not reassuring from what we saw. One game at a time, sure Alonso may not be good enough for the best of opponents, but we weren't facing those opponents and he is capable more often than not since we do face average opponents most of the time anyway, and nothing for now warrants the rushing of Javi or risking Kimmich. The season still needs to develop, we've played less than 10 games and we need to build momentum. The best passer in our team should be key for that, regardless of what we want to imply for the next 6 months.

Regarding Gotze, was he played out of position often? Yes. But Pep doesn't forbid players from taking long shots or Robben and Ribery from cutting inside refusing to pass as long as it doesn't backfire fatally. The difference between ordinary players and the extraordinary ones are for magical moments that will be unleashed regardless of tactics or the flow of the game as we've seen from Robben, Ribery, Muller and Lewandowski. As a football player, if Gotze feels he's used incorrectly, then he should make some runs inside, do a cutting through pass or actually successfully dribble past players to show what he's capable of. Remember his goal against Moskva where he did an impression of Messi? Why doesn't he just decide to try those again? He has a remarkable professional attitude, but his on-pitch spirit has not changed in the slightest since signing for us. Mind you, when Gotze was on form, he was actually used a lot, like A LOT. And then he's form starts dipping and back he goes to the bench again (and even so he is still used regularly as a sub).

We could argue that maybe Pep should just build a system around him (same as saying he should play at CAM basically), but really what's the use if our current line works and Gotze is off-form? As far as I'm concerned it's almost entirely up to Gotze to capitalise on his chances. If he starts performing, he won't stop starting and playing and we've seen that. Pep's used Gotze in both wings as well as centrally, but if you look back at the countable games where he had a huge burst of form (beginnings of the past two seasons), it really wasn't relevant where he was playing. Whether he does it consistently is entirely on him.
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby endrity » Thu Sep 17, 2015 10:43 am

I mentioned in the Gotze thread that a 4-2-3-1 with Gotze as a #10 and Thiago-Vidal behind him would have been great for everyone involved.

There are two issues that come out of your comment Dumbledore. The first is the seeming inability of an oft-annointed tactical genius to deviate from his preferred tactical formations. Clearly he doesn't like a 4-2-3-1 much, and wants a midfield 3. But a good coach should be able to evolve and learn new things as well. Gotze at Dortmund often tracked back, and it's not impossible to instill a bit more discipline in Thiago and Vidal now is it? This would allow Gotze to finally play in his preferred position at a time when he seems to be in really good form, something that we should try to, you know, use as much as possible regardless of the fact that from the wings he seemingly can't give out his best.

The second issue, is the roster building under Pep. Last night we had both Thiago and Vidal healthy, the pairing which we all thought would be our starting midfield, regardless of Javi's recovery. If Pep however wants to play with a midfield 3 instead of Thiago-Vidal, that is something which has to be adressed in the summer by going out and getting another midfielder ready to fill in right now instead of investing in projects like Kimmich or bench warmers like Rode or letting Schweini go. This is simply either bad planning or in fact tells us that Pep does see Alonso as a key component and does not think he should be replaced which is what really worries me.

Here is the question that needs an answer early in the season: assuming everyone is healthy, who do we play against Real/Barca/PSG come spring? Neuer, Lahm, Boateng, Benatia, Alaba seems a given. Thiago-Vidal as well. Robben, Muller, Lewa too. The big question is the 11th player. If it's going to be D.Costa/Ribery than shouldn't we start practicing a bit of this formation right now by teaching our midfield two how to do so? My point is that regardless of some of the injuries we could have still played in the shape and tactics of our top formation last night with Coman and Gotze as starters while they are also in a good form. Injuries and suspensions last night do not lead to Alonso necessarily starting. The fact that Alonso is still there, as a starter, makes me think that this is not in fact a decision due to injuries/suspension but clearly a preference for the player by Pep. And that will be suicide in spring.

I guess you could argue that Alonso was there to give a bit more cover to Alaba, while preferring to sacrifice a more offensive player against a team we could do so. We'll see as the season progresses. But mark my words on this, if Alonso is indeed starting in the big matches later on this year we are in deep trouble. And if he does even due to injuries, a poor roster building in the summer should be seen as one of the reasons.
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby Dumbledore7 » Thu Sep 17, 2015 1:23 pm

The answer to your second point onwards is Javi Martinez, Javi Martinez and Javi Martinez :) We've had a good discussion on this and I am extremely confident on his role we've already discussed. Of course we're talking about the ideal situation here, however. Your point on Alonso starting against the likes of Barcelona is well taken, and I agree with it fully and I think literally everyone else does. Will he start the big games in spring? Provided Javi is fit, not a chance in hell and I'm confident about that.

Now regarding 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3. This is my personal opinion (and taste), but I heavily prefer the latter. I think it's a much more evolved brand of football, with one player holding the midfield to himself and the rest just bombarding the box. And now my argument against 4-2-3-1, particularly for Bayern, right at this moment.

Evaluating the treble success, we had Javi, a defensive natural and monstrous stopper, and Schweini, a box-to-box midfielder as well as brilliant reader of the game who had just refined his tackling technique. Now we have Vidal, who is basically a world-class ball chaser, and Thiago, who can't defend for shit. Regardless of how we want to compare 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3, I don't feel comfortable having Vidal and Thiago holding the midfield because we will lack a player who sits back. On top of that, the fact that we haven't played 4-2-3-1 for years will make it a tactical suicide to play.

I'd also like to reiterate my point that despite Gotze's "best" (although I think the word "default" is better) position being at CAM, we simply don't have to facilitate him by changing the team entirely, for a formation the coach doesn't master. The guy had performed in this system, quite incredibly. In his best performances, he's practically Muller with the addition of sensational footballing skill (Muller also starts in a designated position on the team sheet, but does he not end up absolutely everywhere?). As far as I can see, there is no difference, at least with Pep's tactics and formation, between the games in which Gotze performed and the ones where he didn't. His form is entirely his to pick up. Add a little bit more balls in his game and he's all set. I personally find this whole Gotze issue to be simpler (simple, not easy) than most people made it out to be, especially with whatever bullshit Pep supposedly said on some press conference.
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby quaazi » Thu Sep 17, 2015 1:34 pm

Dumbledore7 wrote:Thiago, who can't defend for shit.

Wow. That shit got brutal real fast. :shock:
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby PunkCapitalist » Thu Sep 17, 2015 2:19 pm

quaazi wrote:
Dumbledore7 wrote:Thiago, who can't defend for shit.

Wow. That shit got brutal real fast. :shock:

He's actually becoming more and more comfortable with his defensive responsibilities lately. He's doing a lot of interceptions and stealing balls in midfield.
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby Dumbledore7 » Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:35 pm

I mean... Well... Comparatively to our other midfielders... Umm okay he's the worst defender amongst them okay?! (Like seriously though I don't want to see him being handed defensive duties, I just can't :( )
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby albanian7 » Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:11 pm

We know Thiago can tackle. What the guy is saying is that he should not be used as a #6 - something Pep has tried repeatedly and never worked. He can recover a ball in midfield, sure, but he's not a DM
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby PunkCapitalist » Thu Sep 17, 2015 6:00 pm

albanian7 wrote:We know Thiago can tackle. What the guy is saying is that he should not be used as a #6 - something Pep has tried repeatedly and never worked. He can recover a ball in midfield, sure, but he's not a DM

Well, of course he isnt a DM, that goes without saying. But Pep doesn't really use him that way. Maybe he did once or twice back in his early days, but not any longer. He usually takes one of the two more advanced midfielders in a middle 3 (Xabi-Thiago,Vidal)
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby prasun77 » Thu Sep 17, 2015 7:53 pm

BTW..can anyone tell me name of one top club which is satisfied with its manager?
just curious..don't say dortmund..they are in the honeymoon period currently!
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby PunkCapitalist » Fri Sep 18, 2015 12:00 am

prasun77 wrote:BTW..can anyone tell me name of one top club which is satisfied with its manager?
just curious..don't say dortmund..they are in the honeymoon period currently!

Juve, Barca? Despite everything, I'm guessing Chelsea too.
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby Thiagoalcantara » Fri Sep 18, 2015 6:08 am

PunkCapitalist wrote:
prasun77 wrote:BTW..can anyone tell me name of one top club which is satisfied with its manager?
just curious..don't say dortmund..they are in the honeymoon period currently!

Juve, Barca? Despite everything, I'm guessing Chelsea too.


Juentus hasn't won a league game and chelsea fans want to sack jose...

Barca is good for now, however, the depth of the team will soon show...
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby albanian7 » Fri Sep 18, 2015 11:45 am

He is asking whether fans are happy with the coach

Chelsea fans want to sack Jose? Wot? From all my Chelsea-fan-friends, none of them wants Jose out. They actually fear that RA will sack him

Depth is not Enrique's fault since they're under a ban - there's no reason for the fans to be unhappy with the manager

City looks happy with Pellegrini and Utd fans realize that they need someone like LvG to build a solid foundation

Arsenal are used with Wenger and they know he'll stay anyway

Real is still in honeymoon mood, but the fans were disappointed when Ancelotti was sacked remember? And that was after a trophyless season ...

Blanc looks fine at PSG, he has built a good team and they're doing well

I really don't get your point, I can't think of another club where fans are as divided about the coach as we are

Not that it's a surprise, we've been divided about coaches in the past too. We were united only when it came to Klinsman, and that was because we all wanted him out
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