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Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby FCB general » Mon Aug 03, 2015 5:23 pm

#12 wrote:That'S why I don't expect the treble... But I also don't want to see humiliations like Wolfsburg in January and Barcelona or Real Madrid 2014...

And Gladbach perversion at Allianz Arena this spring. :?
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby PunkCapitalist » Mon Aug 03, 2015 5:28 pm

endrity wrote:
pyrasur wrote:There is unfounded criticism of Guardiola that is made up that is distracting from legitimate criticism of his coaching. Stuff like "he doesn't even speak to Götze" diverts from true problems, for example on penalties and set pieces. Even then a lot of the speculation on the set pieces, that we don't practice them, is only speculative.

Even the Lahm at CM issue isn't properly addressed. I think Lahm has a level of influence at Bayern (and at the German national team) that influences the trainers (sometimes leads to them getting fired) but is ignored by fans because the coach gets credit/blame. He's great at CM imo, but Lahm contributes to the problem when he displays indiscipline when being told to play RB, drifting inside whenever he feels like he is being left out of the play.

My criticism of Guardiola is that the mentality of the players remains weak. Some of that is not his fault, i.e. Götze needing to be selected to start despite repeated poor performance. Some of the weakness is his fault. The team too easily loses its confidence and gameplan when something adverse happens. To be honest underperformance has been a problem for years with this group of players, choking in 2012, at the 2012 and 2008 UEFA Euros for the German players. In my opinion 2013 was a fluke year where the team was not really properly challenged by a weak Barcelona that didn't have Messi, and in fact we might have lost the final against Dortmund (continuing a string of losing to them) had Dante been sent off for his challenge on Reus. I don't care, because we deserve to be lucky once in a while, just pointing it out that for how much we've been burned by bad luck under Guardiola, this group has had some good luck that really covered us when we might have deserved to lose.


I disagree with some of the points you raise, but this is the type of post I expect from people that disagree with the Guardiola criticism.

For example, I am no huge fan of what Gotze has done here. I think it actually is best for everyone involved if he leaves as I don't expect a sudden reemergence from him. He is what he is for Bayern at this point. He can only rediscover his form and committment somewhere else. But this doesn't mean that Guardiola doesn't play favourites, and unfortunately sometimes that favoritism is directed towards his Spanish players which than leads to other problems. Alonso is clear to see for everyone. Even a good player like Bernat was overplayed last year, which meant that Alaba was constantly being shifted around to fit Bernat in. This has resulted in the familiar problem of Alaba being a bit unsure of his role.

On Lahm, it's clear that he wants to play midfield. He has said so. I disagree on two points though. First, he isn't a great CM, not at this level. He is ok, at best, but that's about it. At least the way I know and play football myself, there is nothing in Lahm as a CM that makes me rate him higher, but I guess we can disagree. On the other hand, no matter his influence he has never been someone that will openly rebel. Low made him play as a RB eventually. Guardiola just shiped out Schweinsteiger, who is arguably even more loved, and has troubles connecting with Muller aparently. He's not going to cave in for Lahm, unless he really believes in his decision. And whatever problems Lahm has as a RB, to me he is still the only elite player we have there, but I won't reopen that discussion here.

I don't think mentality is that much of an issue, these players have won big even when they were not favourites. Yes they lost in 2012, but remember how easy it would have been to cave in the Bernabeu at 2-0 down, or in Manchester at 3-0 down. They won against Argentina in 2010 or Brazil in 2014 when few expected them, no matter how easy that looks to us now.

I think Guardiola has torn apart the team's spine, its monstruous physicality that destroyed everyone in 2013. I remember what Conte said after we beat Juventus in the QF that year. He said he knew Bayern were better technically. But his Juve side were pitbulls who chase and pressure teams to death and he expected to do the same thing to Bayern. What totally surprised him was how much stronger Bayern were physically. Think about it, this is one of Europe's toughest teams who was being totally outclassed at their own game. I have never seen Bayern do that under Guardiola.

I can agree with the diminished physicality, but Alaba was clearly world class last season and Schweinsteiger most likely didn't leave because of Pep (he knew he could no longer sustain a first team spot against Thiago, Javi and he probably knew about Vidal...). Also Bernat was overall great (true, he's not soool good when attacking goal himself, but neither is David, so that's a mute point. His crossing was fantastic OTOH).

As always, some valid criticism being buried by things which cannot be blamed on Pep...
Last edited by PunkCapitalist on Mon Aug 03, 2015 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby nm462272 » Mon Aug 03, 2015 5:32 pm

Endrity - I agree with everything you said, except the point about Alaba (his movement to MF is the next step forward for his career) and about Guardiola shipping out Schweini.

Let me reiterate that I am not a Pep supporter. I think that his approach to the game neuters several of the Bayern players and the team, to me, has felt like it's regressed.

The only thing I was trying to get at was that some people blame everything on Pep, and try to make the smallest things a huge problem. When that happens, it takes away from the legitimate criticisms of him, like the ones you presented.

There is plenty of room on the board for criticisms and, yes, praise. But we also need to keep things in perspective and not detract from legitimate points with baseless remarks.
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby nm462272 » Mon Aug 03, 2015 5:45 pm

#12 wrote:That'S why I don't expect the treble... But I also don't want to see humiliations like Wolfsburg in January and Barcelona or Real Madrid 2014...


And Bayern at Bate Borisov...
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby ottackon » Mon Aug 03, 2015 6:08 pm

The coach left Mario Gotze out of Saturday's DFL-Supercup defeat to Wolfsburg, which prompted further questions from reporters.

"We played in a competitive match, Mario Gotze did not play, you might also ask about Arjen Robben or Thomas Muller," he said. "I cannot say in every press conference why one player or another did not play.

"Only 11 can play, the players know that and the press should too. Gotze is one of my favourite players. Last season he played in all of the games except two or three.

"But they have to try and convince me on the pitch in every game, not in the past. They have to convince me, not journalists."


Ex-Bayern and Germany player Lothar Matthaus also took a pop at the Spaniard, claiming Chelsea boss Jose Mourinho is the better coach, though Guardiola was not interested in comparing himself to his former Real Madrid rival.

"Everyone can criticise. Journalists can also criticise me. Mourinho is one of the best coaches in the world. I don’t know if I’m the best, I’m not here to be the best coach in the world, but to give the best for the team.

"If we win, they say we’re good, if we don’t win, they say the players don’t understand me, there’s drama. Everything depends on the outcome."
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby RedQueen » Mon Aug 03, 2015 6:32 pm

pyrasur wrote:There is unfounded criticism of Guardiola that is made up that is distracting from legitimate criticism of his coaching. Stuff like "he doesn't even speak to Götze" diverts from true problems, for example on penalties and set pieces. Even then a lot of the speculation on the set pieces, that we don't practice them, is only speculative.

It's not at all speculative when it comes to freekicks. That freekicks aren't practiced in the team was confirmed by both Neuer and Alaba shortly after the winter break. Alaba said he practices freekicks individually after the others have left. With corners, Guardiola pretty much admitted they weren't practiced enough when he complained about FC Bayern being "catastrophic" with corners and said the team has to work on it - after the Kicker had published a story on just how catastrophic the corner statistics are and Bild picked that up. Penalities, Saturday night in Sportstudio he said that penalties are a mentality thing and he doesn't see the need of increased practice. Today at the presser he was asked again, and depending on which transcript you believe (I couldn't find a video yet) he either said the team doesn't practice them more than usual or that they don't practice them at all - either way, it was clear that there's been no reaction in response to losing four shootouts in a row. So there really isn't much speculation when it comes to the question of whether set pieces and penalties are treated as secondary issues in training or not.

On a side note, I don't think there is an objective way of judging what criticism is legitimate and what is unfounded, unless it's completely obvious that things are brought up that have nothing to do with Pep at all.
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby ottackon » Mon Aug 03, 2015 6:41 pm

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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby Achilles » Mon Aug 03, 2015 7:04 pm

The criticism at Pep Guardiola at the moment is clearly unfair even for his haters! Too early for anyting to say,no healthy squad
The criticism at Pep Guardiola for the past two years makes sense,he made huge mistakes and acknowledged.. some of them.
The criticism at Pep Guardiola from veterans such as Effenberg-Matthaus are on a bad timing and laughable,they just draw attention for them

Clearly Pep feels the pressure,he is no more at home with his parents(Barca team) and the expectations are very high even for a guy who has already won multiple titles with emphasis,for me personally titles & silverware are just another reason to call somebody successful,being successful is a bunch of reasons together(long story),five years ago Pep would be treated like a god at Munich with those results,after treble Bayern & this quality players of course no and he needs to understand that,out of nowhere a "philospher of football" like Pep answers the question "why Bayern were thrashed? or why the team is underperfoming?" with "we have already won 2 BuLis in a row & qualified to CL semis"
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby pyrasur » Mon Aug 03, 2015 7:25 pm

RedQueen wrote:
pyrasur wrote:There is unfounded criticism of Guardiola that is made up that is distracting from legitimate criticism of his coaching. Stuff like "he doesn't even speak to Götze" diverts from true problems, for example on penalties and set pieces. Even then a lot of the speculation on the set pieces, that we don't practice them, is only speculative.

It's not at all speculative when it comes to freekicks. That freekicks aren't practiced in the team was confirmed by both Neuer and Alaba shortly after the winter break. Alaba said he practices freekicks individually after the others have left. With corners, Guardiola pretty much admitted they weren't practiced enough when he complained about FC Bayern being "catastrophic" with corners and said the team has to work on it - after the Kicker had published a story on just how catastrophic the corner statistics are and Bild picked that up. Penalities, Saturday night in Sportstudio he said that penalties are a mentality thing and he doesn't see the need of increased practice. Today at the presser he was asked again, and depending on which transcript you believe (I couldn't find a video yet) he either said the team doesn't practice them more than usual or that they don't practice them at all - either way, it was clear that there's been no reaction in response to losing four shootouts in a row. So there really isn't much speculation when it comes to the question of whether set pieces and penalties are treated as secondary issues in training or not.

On a side note, I don't think there is an objective way of judging what criticism is legitimate and what is unfounded, unless it's completely obvious that things are brought up that have nothing to do with Pep at all.


Well for one I just don't always take what anyone says as the truth. Coaches consistenly try to hide their training and preparations, but tbh I'll take your and Guardiola's word that they don't practice penalties. I do think they must practice set pieces on some level, because some of them are clearly rehearsed.

It just seems strange to me that a world champions coach, someone who captained Barca and who has seen a few trophy runs ended now on penalties, would not know how to prepare a group of guys for penalties. TBH our college team didn't really practice them either, not that this is a professional standard or anything. Does the guy really need to hold Neuer's hand and tell a group of five to practice some goddam pk's? Even if Guardiola is a horrible coach, is there no one on the team taking responsibility and saying we need to do this? How hard is it for Neuer to grab some dudes after practice and have them take shots? I get it that Guardiola is the coach and takes ultimate responsibility, but at my job there is instruction time but no one holds my hand 24/7 and makes sure I do ALL the training I need to do for my job. And if someone who had no experience in my craft told me how to do it, I'd laugh it off.

I'll accept your argument that we need to practice penalties or that something needs to be changed. I just think it's absurd that such a simple problem can be fixed by such a simple solution and this coach would choose not to do it.
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby RedQueen » Mon Aug 03, 2015 7:36 pm

Well, when it comes to freekicks Alaba has taken the initiative to start and practice them on his own; here's hoping that someone steps up and does the same when it comes to pens.

As for what World Champion coaches do and don't: I remember Löw saying that he's not about "to waste time" on practicing set pieces up to the preparations for the World Cup. Hansi Flick who was his debuty was the one who insisted and pushed it through that team Germany starts practicing them.
Last edited by RedQueen on Mon Aug 03, 2015 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby albanian7 » Mon Aug 03, 2015 7:46 pm

I don't think it's necessary for Pep to observe the set-pieces are anything. But somewhere along the agenda, why don't they add

Monday 10:00-11:00 Penalties practice
Thursday 10:00-11:00 Corners
Saturday 10:00-11:00 Free kicks

Pep today said they don't practice them before matches (at least that's the translation I found). Last night, he said penalties are a mentality thing and don't need additional practice (I'd like to say btw, that when you have practiced something, you're mentally more confident to do that). And Neuer has been considerably worse at penalties in the past season - not that I blame Pep on that, studying other players' penalties is his GK coach responsibility, not Pep's.

Our corners are awful - we cannot score on them, we cannot defend them. Scoring them is a problem linked also with Mandzu's departure; defending them has been a problem as long as I can remember (a decade). And why don't our players cover the posts :(

Both Neuer and Alaba said they don't practice free kicks in training during the winter camp. I don't know if you remember the match when Javi played last season (can't remember against whom) when a few players jumped earlier, Javi didn't move and the group of players - it would be a shame to call it a wall - failed to defend it and we conceded a goal. If someone wants to be an expert free kick taker, then they can practice on their own, but defending a free kick should be a priority.
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby #12 » Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:54 pm

FCB general wrote:And Gladbach perversion at Allianz Arena this spring. :?


True that!

PunkCapitalist wrote:Schweinsteiger most likely didn't leave because of Pep (he knew he could no longer sustain a first team spot against Thiago, Javi and he probably knew about Vidal...).


just that Schweinsteiger is more of a holding midfielder - and he would wipe the floor with what Alonso has been displaying recenty ;)

Maybe Alaba COULD be the solution - though I see him more as a box-to-box player when playing in midfield since he lacks physicality...

nm462272 wrote:And Bayern at Bate Borisov...


Group stage, humiliating, yes... One of three losses in all competitions... Pep has lost that many times in two weeks of May 2015 alone... ;)

I agree, some criticism may seem unfair... But in my case it's just cause it's so plain obvious to me that mistakes are repeating themselves over and over again... So yes, we need to wait and see what happens in the next few weeks, but there's little hope he'll change in two weeks or so what he didn't change in more than two years... The guy thinks he's the inventor of soccer - or at least that he has to reinvent it...

So... Set-pieces - is that like penalties, free-kicks, corner kicks? Sorry, I actually think I have a high mastery of English but since I spent my semester abroad in the U.S. and most of my friends are American, I rarely discuss soccer in English someplace else than here... ;)

I don't think practicing penalties would help... Here's where somebody might accuse me - maybe rightfully so - of being unfair again... But it's obvious that - besides "drama dahoam" - success in penalty shootouts has declined especially since Pep arrived... And yes, to be fair, I don't know how or what, when or why - but he has to take the blame in some way... Something has changed, the guys are mentally less stable than they used to be... Don't know how to improve it really, but there's no denying we used to be better at this particular event... Maybe it's because they are mentally worn out since they have trouble understanding him? (basically taking shots in the dark here -as they seem to be sometimes :P )
Also, we never have our best penalty shooters in the field (Müller and Lewa e.g. in Wolfsburg...)
Thanks for nothing, :pep: !!
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby Norman » Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:16 pm

Somebody knows about rumours of a Pep political engagement in autonomist party of Catalogna?

P.S. I've searched a thread for send condolences to the beckenbauer family but I have not found it,Someone can help me?
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby quaazi » Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:18 pm

endrity wrote:
And we let LVG go because by the end of it he was too stuck up to change and in order to prove everyone wrong he started making stupid decisions all around the pitch (btw, I think he is headed that way with Man U, but we'll see). I see no reason why we can't do the same with Guardiola as well.

Because Guardiola is not in danger of missing out on the Champions League spots? #duh
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby #12 » Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:23 pm

Norman wrote:Somebody knows about rumours of a Pep political engagement in autonomist party of Catalogna?


AFAIK he's the last one on the ballot - it's more of a symbolical/promotional act...

About Beckenbauer: no idea - I doubt your condolences would reach them though...
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