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Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby MUTU » Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:28 am

I really don't understand the talk of Bayern going 'international' and losing their identity.

German players who left under Pep:
- Gomez
- Can
- Petersen
- Raeder
- Contento
- Kroos
- Weiser
- Schweinsteiger

German player additions under Pep:
- Götze
- Kirchhoff
- Green (promoted)
- Kurt
- Rode
- Gaudino (promoted)
- Kimmich
- Ulreich

So 8 departures, 8 additions. One of the departures (Contento) would rather play for Italy than Germany.

Out of the departures, Contento and Schweinsteiger are Bavarian.
Out of the additions, Götze is Bavarian while Green has been living in Bavaria since he was two years old.
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby albanian7 » Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:00 am

Kroos and Basti were undisputable starters
None of the 8 additions are
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby moimoi » Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:10 am

so?

götze could be.

and kurt, gaudino, kimmich can be in the future.

you can always criticize something.

which other germans would be undisputable starters?
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby endrity » Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:08 am

It seems silly to me to ask for fans to "provide solutions", as that is not what fans anywhere do.

Just like voters don't "provide solutions" but go and vote regularly to show whether they like the direction the country is taking, so do fans in regards to their clubs. At time fan movements have been bad and hurt the club, at times, like for example Dortmund's case, if it wasn't for the fans the club might have died. But questioning whether the fans have a right to voice their opinion, in a membership-based club like Bayern moreso, seems incredibly silly to me.

Ultimately the question is this: Was the 2013 team that blew apart the rest of the Europe and is still considered as one of the best single-season teams to ever play on the decline or not?

I tend to believe that it wasn't at all, in fact it had reached an almost perfect blend of skill, speed, athleticism, youth and experience, that no matter how much money you spend can very rarely be achieved. And when you have such a team, you do very few things to mess around with it. Guardiola has done the opposite and has been rewarded with two humiliating defeats in the CL. Utterly humiliating! Shameful, disgusting defeats, which have left deep scars for the players and fans!

When you take such risks and you achieve these awful results, you better believe the fans are coming after you and with very good reason too. It would be deeply troubling to me if the fans actually didn't vent their frustration in such a case.
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby ramsej84 » Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:12 pm

Munich - fans have hung on the office of FC Bayern Sabener road a protest banner. After Schweinsteiger change their anger was directed at coach Guardiola and board boss Rummenigge. [source]
U l-Kotra qamet f’daqqa – u għajtet: “Jien Maltija!
Miskin min ikasbarni, - miskin min jidħak bija!”
U l-Kotra għanniet f’daqqa – u semmgħet ma’ l-irjieħ
L-Innu ta’ Malta tagħna, – u l-leħen kien rebbieħ,
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby FCB general » Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:24 pm

The worst thing is when people there also started to call Rummenigge an asshole, bitch, slave, garbage, etc.

That's very bad for Kalle. :|
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby nm462272 » Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:52 pm

FCB general wrote:The worst thing is when people there also started to call Rummenigge an asshole, bitch, slave, garbage, etc.

That's very bad for Kalle. :|


They forget what he means and has done for this club...
Des interessiert mi ois ned, der Scheißdreck. Weltmeister samma! Den Pott hamma! Den scheiß goldener Schuh kannst da hinter d’Ohr’n schmiern! - Mia San Mia

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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby nm462272 » Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:53 pm

MUTU wrote:I really don't understand the talk of Bayern going 'international' and losing their identity.

German players who left under Pep:
- Gomez
- Can
- Petersen
- Raeder
- Contento
- Kroos
- Weiser
- Schweinsteiger

German player additions under Pep:
- Götze
- Kirchhoff
- Green (promoted)
- Kurt
- Rode
- Gaudino (promoted)
- Kimmich
- Ulreich

So 8 departures, 8 additions. One of the departures (Contento) would rather play for Italy than Germany.

Out of the departures, Contento and Schweinsteiger are Bavarian.
Out of the additions, Götze is Bavarian while Green has been living in Bavaria since he was two years old.


I tried this argument yesterday... some people won't listen to the facts, no matter how glaring they are
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby pyrasur » Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:56 pm

endrity wrote:It seems silly to me to ask for fans to "provide solutions", as that is not what fans anywhere do.

Just like voters don't "provide solutions" but go and vote regularly to show whether they like the direction the country is taking, so do fans in regards to their clubs. At time fan movements have been bad and hurt the club, at times, like for example Dortmund's case, if it wasn't for the fans the club might have died. But questioning whether the fans have a right to voice their opinion, in a membership-based club like Bayern moreso, seems incredibly silly to me.

Ultimately the question is this: Was the 2013 team that blew apart the rest of the Europe and is still considered as one of the best single-season teams to ever play on the decline or not?

I tend to believe that it wasn't at all, in fact it had reached an almost perfect blend of skill, speed, athleticism, youth and experience, that no matter how much money you spend can very rarely be achieved. And when you have such a team, you do very few things to mess around with it. Guardiola has done the opposite and has been rewarded with two humiliating defeats in the CL. Utterly humiliating! Shameful, disgusting defeats, which have left deep scars for the players and fans!

When you take such risks and you achieve these awful results, you better believe the fans are coming after you and with very good reason too. It would be deeply troubling to me if the fans actually didn't vent their frustration in such a case.


Fans have a right to voice their opinions, and also question other fans when they simply bemoan their club's sad state without arguing a better way to work the club. I agree the fans should not be passive and accept failure. That is no reason to accept unfounded criticism people make just so they can feel better about themselves.

I am not taking away your right to say we need a new coach. I am saying that your proposition that you take the 2013 team and do nothing with that is stupid. You can do nothing with the team, things will /still/ happen to it like age and injury. The team gets found out. You have only to look at another club in Germany to see what happens when you try the same thing for too long. Unfortunately, its highly efficient machine lost some of its focus, it started losing key players to age and injury and transfers without properly replacing them, and other clubs just figured out how to play against it. That is Jurgen Klopp's Dortmund team.
而剑法的最高境界,则是手中无剑,心中也无剑,是以大胸怀,包容一切。那便是不杀,便是和平。-英雄
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby Korab » Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:12 pm

"That is Jurgen Klopp's Dortmund team." - that's total BS. Borussia was a team of no names, paid very little. They came to prominence and wanted to get more money which they never got. That started internal problems which Bayern used to it's advantage getting Goetze and Lewa. The rest just got completely dispirited. That is the story of BVB which is completely different fron that of Bayerns and you know it. You use that argument just to play on some posters feelings toward BVB and prove your not valid points.
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby pyrasur » Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:38 pm

Lol. I never said that was the story of Bayern Munich. I said that's the story of a team that took its successful gegenpressing style and tried to keep doing it forever. I'm showing why 2013 Bayern would have been beaten eventually, the same way the world thought how 2011 Barcelona would live forever. In any case you are only proving my point that things happened to BVB whether they wanted them to or not.

The wheels come off eventually one way or the other, and in a game where everyone is trying to get every little advantage you can, losing that little bit makes a big difference. Eventually a key player will be injuried, like Messi was in 2013 or Ribery and Robben were for us. Or something else will happen. Don't get salty about it :wink:
而剑法的最高境界,则是手中无剑,心中也无剑,是以大胸怀,包容一切。那便是不杀,便是和平。-英雄
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby RedQueen » Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:44 pm

nm462272 wrote:Also, strangely enough, it's always the international fans that bemoan a "loss of identity"... you never hear it in Munich.


Image

nm462272 wrote:... some people won't listen to the facts, no matter how glaring they are


:)

BTW I answered your post yesterday in a kind of longish post, explaining why your comparison doesn't add up. You chose "not to reply point by point".
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby Korab » Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:11 pm

pyrasur wrote:Lol. I never said that was the story of Bayern Munich. I said that's the story of a team that took its successful gegenpressing style and tried to keep doing it forever. I'm showing why 2013 Bayern would have been beaten eventually, the same way the world thought how 2011 Barcelona would live forever. In any case you are only proving my point that things happened to BVB whether they wanted them to or not.

The wheels come off eventually one way or the other, and in a game where everyone is trying to get every little advantage you can, losing that little bit makes a big difference. Eventually a key player will be injuried, like Messi was in 2013 or Ribery and Robben were for us. Or something else will happen. Don't get salty about it :wink:

No, I'm not proving any of your points at all. You and me don't know how that "gegenpressing" would work for BVB if not internal problems and loss of key players. On other hand wheels came off tiki-taka system before Guardiola came to Bayern. He inherited team on top and at once started to convert that winning team to the one without wheels as you say. I understand that each coach wants to have his own impact on their team but trying to totally convert winning team to something absolutely different? Looks like your Guardiola used Bayern as polygon for his experiments. And your point is that this change of style is the future for Bayern, this will keep it on top? Looks like that style does not help too much Spain to stay on top.
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby nm462272 » Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:35 pm

RedQueen wrote:
nm462272 wrote:Also, strangely enough, it's always the international fans that bemoan a "loss of identity"... you never hear it in Munich.


Image

nm462272 wrote:... some people won't listen to the facts, no matter how glaring they are


:)

BTW I answered your post yesterday in a kind of longish post, explaining why your comparison doesn't add up. You chose "not to reply point by point".


Meh, I'm done arguing about it. I'll amend my statement to say "you hear it less often from the fans in Bayern/Munich". Just because some people hung a banner doesn't change the fact that I personally haven't heard it from any friends or family who are Bayern fans. Also, let's not forget "Koan Neuer"... but that's neither here not there.

The truth is, I dislike Pep but I don't think he's changing Bayern's identity. You dislike Pep and think he is. It won't matter a year from now when he's moving to the Premier League.

But in the end, if Bayern's identity is changing, than neither you nor I can do anything about it. Maybe become an 1860 fan, who clearly have no bigger ambitions than Munich?

Lastly, I don't want to see Bayern's identity change either, but I still don't think it's actually happening.
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Re: Pep Guardiola [Josep Guardiola i Sala]

Postby RedQueen » Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:44 pm

I'm actually done with arguing about it, too (and with discussions about Bayern in general for the time being; it's just too time consuming and it leads to nothing).

I just found it too funny that you of all people would talk about ignoring glaring facts.

And I don't dislike Pep. I think he isn't the right coach for Bayern, but that doesn't make me dislike him on a personal level. I've also clarified yesterday already that I don't think he's actively/intentionally changing Bayern's identity and that I think Kalle is the bigger problem. One of the reasons I've decided to take a leave of absence is that I have to repeat the same points endlessly because they keep getting twisted and wrong quoted and turned into something I never said, which makes the discussions so needlessly time consuming and tedious.
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