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Holger Badstuber

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Re: Holger Badstuber

Postby ramsej84 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:57 am

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Re: Holger Badstuber

Postby EverFresh » Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:43 pm

Badstuber scored the winner for Stuttgart today

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Re: Holger Badstuber

Postby JANCKER » Sat Aug 26, 2017 9:26 pm

IMO he has leader qualities on pitch...
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Re: Holger Badstuber

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Sat Aug 26, 2017 9:51 pm

JANCKER wrote:IMO he has leader qualities on pitch...
He is leader quality just by his determination off the pitch if you ask me.

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Re: Holger Badstuber

Postby America USA » Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:24 am

This question might sound far fetched and preposterous but I wanna know if Badstuber has any realistic chance of making it to the NT for next year's WC?

I'm not being sarcastic or ironic I'm serious. Him and Reus are two of the best German players who, had it not been for their injury problems, would have been truly great footballers.
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Re: Holger Badstuber

Postby MUTU » Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:45 am

America USA wrote:This question might sound far fetched and preposterous but I wanna know if Badstuber has any realistic chance of making it to the NT for next year's WC?

I'm not being sarcastic or ironic I'm serious. Him and Reus are two of the best German players who, had it not been for their injury problems, would have been truly great footballers.
Much depends on the fitness I would say. If Badstuber manages to stay fit all through the season he would have decent chances of regaining his best form which would in turn deserve a place in Russia.
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Re: Holger Badstuber

Postby ramsej84 » Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:03 am

MUTU wrote:
America USA wrote:This question might sound far fetched and preposterous but I wanna know if Badstuber has any realistic chance of making it to the NT for next year's WC?

I'm not being sarcastic or ironic I'm serious. Him and Reus are two of the best German players who, had it not been for their injury problems, would have been truly great footballers.
Much depends on the fitness I would say. If Badstuber manages to stay fit all through the season he would have decent chances of regaining his best form which would in turn deserve a place in Russia.
Still I don't think that he will get another chance...

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Re: Holger Badstuber

Postby endrity » Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:13 pm

Well Holger has had much worse injuries than Reus has in recent years. Or at least Reus has shown an ability to come back to top shape immediately after the injuries. We'll see what happens after the recent one as it's a partial ACL, so it's much more serious than the other ones.

Also, I might be in the minority here, but I think Holger's top level was somewhat lower than Reus' is. Holger had good techincal abilities for a defender and also had a strong mentality, but physically he just wasn't imposing enough to be an absolute great defender even if he never got hurt. Reus on the other hand seemed to have it all to make be considered in the absolute elite group of players for his position. He had pace, vision, goal instincts, powerful shot, great engine. I have said it before on the Dortmund thread, but I believe he was this Germany generation's greatest offensive talent and it's such a shame he did not play a part in Brazil. He still is potentially a starter if he comes back for the WC in Russia.

Holger faces a much bigger climb against much stronger competition. He should be happy that he is playing regularly in the Bundesliga again I think.
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Re: Holger Badstuber

Postby aterford » Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:27 pm

I happen to have a similar opinion to Endrity.

While probably unpopular amongst Bayern fans, I think nostalgia is clouding our view of Badstuber. The fact that he hasn't played at a top level in so, so long makes the time when he was playing well look that much better....Just as people tend to look back on the "good old days" and remember them in a more positive light than is accurate, I think such is the case with Badstuber. I always respect the guy and like him as a person for sure, but I think in recent years we have tended to overrate him more and more....Even before all his injuries I don't think he was going to be the world-beater that many have made him out to be. It's telling that people talk more now about his potential now than they did before he got injured. Almost everyone I see rates Badstuber higher now "if he hadn't got hurt" than they did 6 years ago, before he was ever injured.
I don't mean to sound harsh but even if he'd progressed as he had been and never got injured, he'd likely be 5th choice CB on this team right now, behind all of Hummels, Boateng, Süle, and Martinez. As far as for the DFB? Still well behind Hummels and Boateng, Süle, Mustafi, and IMO isn't playing any better than Tah or Rüdiger, tbh...even if he can get healthy and in-form, that is quite the mountain to climb.
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Re: Holger Badstuber

Postby MUTU » Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:44 pm

aterford wrote:I don't mean to sound harsh but even if he'd progressed as he had been and never got injured, he'd likely be 5th choice CB on this team right now, behind all of Hummels, Boateng, Süle, and Martinez. As far as for the DFB? Still well behind Hummels and Boateng, Süle, Mustafi, and IMO isn't playing any better than Tah or Rüdiger, tbh...even if he can get healthy and in-form, that is quite the mountain to climb.

You do sound harsh talking about a player who, just three years ago, Guardiola said is the best defender he's ever had. Therefore, like Heynckes and Löw, Guardiola rated Badstuber higher than Boateng.

The big IF is regarding him actually staying injury-free and recovering his old form. If he does (which I see as very far-fetched), however, my money is on Boateng or Hummels sitting on the bench, or a 3-man defence featuring Badstuber.
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Re: Holger Badstuber

Postby Jorge » Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:42 pm

MUTU wrote:just three years ago, Guardiola said is the best defender he's ever had.


I remember the statement but I am under the impression that it was in the context of his ball control - game vision and not defending in general.

Personally, I think Badstuber's game vision to start play from the back was overlooked by many. I remember an insane through pass from the backline all the way to the front that produced a goal for Germany ( I think it was vs Azerbaijan) and he was also good at sending curling crosses in dead ball situation although rarely used as such. LVG let him took a few in his last year.

A kind of sounds that I talking like if he was dead but it has to do more that most likely he will never wear the Bayern or Germany's colors again. I hope he regains and maintains some form since he still can play 4-5 more years at BL level but his chances of making the NT are very slim. Anyone remember Robert Huth? He anchored Leicester's defense to a rare EPL title but Löw never called him back.
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Re: Holger Badstuber

Postby endrity » Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:39 pm

Well, Guardiola also said that he wanted a team full of Dantes, and then proceeded to, correctly, sell the player because he just wasn't good enough anymore. He also said that Lahm is the smartest player he ever had and could play CM. Phillip might very well be the smartest player he had, by some definition, but he was just a good midfielder compared to an all-time great RB. Let's just agree that Pep was never very truthful in public, and even in cases where he was, he had weird ideas for players and formations which never fully panned out at Bayern, but also at City.

Heynckes and Low played him, and rated him I think, but it's not like he was facing some competition at the time. Let's not forget that at the WC 2010, Holger had a pretty horrible time as a LB and even when he had to step in for Alaba in the fall of 2012, he again seemed quite fleet footed even against Bate Borisov. I know he's not a LB naturally, but most great defensive talents will at least show some qualities even if they are played wide, especially in their early years when physically they can still run a bit more.

I rate Holger's passing abilities very well. But even there it's a doubt he has more qualities than Hummels and Boa. I am not sure how he'd compare to other prospects at Germany/Bayern, but I would have been very surprised to see him reach the heights that Hummels and Boa have. I have said other times that beyond those two, there is a severe drop-off right now in the middle of the defense for Germany, and that the younger prospects have yet to grab the opportunity. I think Sule will, he seems to have it all, and hopefully someone like Tah can as well. Holger might make it as a 4th choice defender if he really excels, but I just wish he can have a few healthy years in the Bundesliga at this point.
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Re: Holger Badstuber

Postby aterford » Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:00 am

MUTU wrote:
aterford wrote:I don't mean to sound harsh but even if he'd progressed as he had been and never got injured, he'd likely be 5th choice CB on this team right now, behind all of Hummels, Boateng, Süle, and Martinez. As far as for the DFB? Still well behind Hummels and Boateng, Süle, Mustafi, and IMO isn't playing any better than Tah or Rüdiger, tbh...even if he can get healthy and in-form, that is quite the mountain to climb.

You do sound harsh talking about a player who, just three years ago, Guardiola said is the best defender he's ever had. Therefore, like Heynckes and Löw, Guardiola rated Badstuber higher than Boateng.

The big IF is regarding him actually staying injury-free and recovering his old form. If he does (which I see as very far-fetched), however, my money is on Boateng or Hummels sitting on the bench, or a 3-man defence featuring Badstuber.


LOL, I love Pep, but he also talked about how great a defender Dante was (you remember "Give me 1000 Dantes," right?) even though he was clearly having an awful season. Pep said a lot of things that shouldn't have been taken literally and/or seriously. Let's not forget that Pep had the chance to sign Badstuber and chose to not do so.
(In whatever case, three years ago Badstuber was chronically injured as well. I think it's fair to say that Pep was likely talking about Badstuber's mental game/football IQ, not necessarily his physical skill...)
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Re: Holger Badstuber

Postby MUTU » Wed Aug 30, 2017 5:45 am

Endrity and aterford, you are mixing what Pep said in public (thousand Dantes), meant to motivate players, and what Pep said in private to his assistant coach which was caught by secret microphones (Badstuber is the best player I ever had). The latter carries far more weight than the former and you should at least appreciate that.
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Re: Holger Badstuber

Postby aterford » Wed Aug 30, 2017 7:36 am

Yeah, I still think you're stretching it a bit. First off, if you listened to Pep talk much, you'd know that both his German and English were pretty rudimentary and I don't think it's entirely honest to assume that what he intended to say is exactly what came out. In whatever case, Pep further clarified this comment in an interview shortly after being asked about his hidden-camera statement, saying that
"in build up play, Badstuber is one of the best players I've ever seen". Note that this is radically different from "He is the best player I have ever had". Pep was directly asked to clarify that remark. He could have simply said "Yes, what I meant is that he is the best player I've ever had," but the fact that he didn't suggests that this was merely hyperbole.
And, of course, we should note that Pep might've "talked the talk" here, but he didn't walk the walk. Holger himself complained that he felt Pep never gave him a worthwhile look, never considered him a realistic option, and described his time at Bayern under Pep as "a crap phase in life"
Further, Pep also said that Lahm was the smartest and most well-rounded footballer he ever coached and that Messi is the best player of all time. Obviously, Lahm, Messi, and Badstuber can't all be the best player Pep ever had....plus, Pep coached legends such as Iniesta, Xavi, Puyol, Lahm, Robben, Ribery, Henry, Messi, etc....I know you have a high view on Bads, but I think even the most optimistic Badstuber supporter would be willing to admit that he was never going to reach the heights that those guys did. So we must either admit that a.) Pep is just plain wrong (Badstuber is not better than Messi, Robben, Lahm, et al) or b.) Pep was speaking in hyperbole and he didn't mean that Badstuber was literally the best player he ever had, or c.) Pep's clarifying statement "Best player in build up" is closer to the truth.

Anyways above all of that, like i said, Badstuber was chronically injured when Pep coached him, so there's really no way he could've intended to mean that Badstuber was the best all-around defender - like I said, perhaps mentally, football IQ, etc, but obviously not physically - and also, like I said, Pep had the chance to sign Badstuber to City and refused to do so. I'm sure if he had the chance to sign the best player he ever coached, he would...
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