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Re: World News Thread

Postby PunkCapitalist » Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:38 pm

ottackon wrote:I have read enough articles, books, and watched enough documentaries on South America, especially about the leftist social movement in this part of the world to get a fairly accurate picture of what is going on there.
You have your ideas and you belong to a certain social background, but don't give me orders on what I have to write or think, because even if you're venezuelan, you don't have the monopoly of truth on this country.
Anyway, I'll keep writing on the situation in Venezuela whenever there is something new to report, but don't feel obliged to respond to my posts, because they are not intended for you.

Right... I now full well the whole conspiracy narrative you've taken as truth, so I'm not gonna bother. Instead, why don't you explain to us these objective and verifiable facts:

- Both Maduro and Chávez before him completely bypassed Congress by way of the Ley Habilitante, a law which allows the executive to legislate directly, because of "emergency situations" and economic war", for several years now.

- Congress has been declared illegal by the chavista-appointed Supreme Court. There is so much to say about this point, let's just state the basics; a Congress was chosen in elections (despite absolute Chavista control over the Electoral Council, which is known to heavily favor the government) resulting in a supermajority for the opposition. Immediately after the results, the Electoral Council began investigating fraud against 4 newly I elected congressmen, 3 opposition, 1 chavista. After declaring their election fraudulent (thus taking away the supermajority from opposition in Congress), they were sworn in by Congress regardless. The supreme Court (several members of which were hastly appointed by the the outgoing Congress just before the end of it's period) declared Congress in breach of it's authority and (this is the truly absurdly unconstitutional part of it all) has been legislating itself "to ensure peace and stability". Yes, the Supreme Court is the one making laws now. Constitution has absolutely no provision for such a thing. Government yearly depositions before Congress were thus conducted before the Supreme Court instead. This is a complete mockery of constitutional separation of powers.

- Henrique Capriles-Radonski, the most popular opposition leader, and a multiple times elected public officer at various levels, has been banned from RUNNING for public office for 15 years. Something to read https://www.caracaschronicles.com/2017/ ... pposition/

- The Venezuelan Central Bank has not published inflation rates since December 2015. On 2015, yearly inflation was 280%. No official data for 2016 or 2017 exists, but the estimates range from 400-900% for 2016 and similar inflation is expected for 2017. GDP, hasn't been published either.

- Imports have been cut to less than half in 2 years. This is particularly bad for a country which basically only produces Oil and relies on imports for everything else ("despite" Chávez first raising to power 18 years ago!). It's also noteworthy that, despite cutting imports in more than 50%, the government keeps paying foreign debt clockwork. This is what it is doing to keep current: https://www.caracaschronicles.com/2017/ ... ff-patria/

- After using several convulated roadblocks to eliminate the possibility of the opposition calling for a Referendo Revocatorio (a referendum to remove Maduro from power, a perfectly valid constitutional mechanism), CNE decided to; require all political parties to reapply for registration if they want to be able to put out candidates for future elections (roadblocks make the process basically impossible), and also to call off the scheduled regional elections that were to be held on December 2016 (and haven't been held yet) because of "insufficiency of funds and time".

Dear Ottakon, I know you like your leaders dictatorial, but please do try to justify any of these points.

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World News Thread

Postby pyrasur » Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:55 pm

You can try and delegitimize what I'm saying if you want. If you want to adopt the same tactics that the governments you admire use, that's up to you.

I at least recognize that I am taught my perspective from a certain 'class' (if you will) of people that come to the United States because they were evicted from their country by the people you support. I read about what's going on around the world, i try and get news on Ukraine and South America. I may be American, but we have plenty of Russians who fled Putin, Cubans who fled Castro, the list goes on. At some point I believe them that it's the democracy against despotism. I know my side isn't always nice, but neither I don't think is yours.

As an example, what I really don't understand is how you can say Assad is democratically elected and it's not a big deal he's bombing his own people in order to stay in power, but it's ok that left wing revolutionaries seized their countries by force and rig the political system. It seems like a double standard.

I'm sorry we disagree. Again I respect you, I don't agree with your opinions but it's nothing personal.
而剑法的最高境界,则是手中无剑,心中也无剑,是以大胸怀,包容一切。那便是不杀,便是和平。-英雄
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Re: World News Thread

Postby pyrasur » Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:06 pm

ottackon wrote:You've just said that you have no idea what is going on in Venezuela, so why are you replying to me in the first place ?


I chose my words poorly. I meant I don't know exactly what is going on, because reflecting on what PunkCapitalist said, I think he's right that as someone who doesn't live in Venezuela, I just don't have the full picture. I read news and I talk to expats, but that's as close as I can get. I form my opinion as well as I can. But I also think you have a right as well to form an opinion based on information you get.
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Re: World News Thread

Postby JANCKER » Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:22 pm

FCBayernMunchen wrote:I have no idea about politics in that part of the world.


It's easy... let me explain it to you... it's shit everywhere. :)
Una palabra no dice nada y al mismo tiempo lo esconde todo, igual que el viento esconde el agua, como las flores que esconden lodo. Una mirada no dice nada y al mismo tiempo lo dice todo, como la lluvia sobre tu cara o el viejo mapa de algun tesoro.
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Re: World News Thread

Postby pyrasur » Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:27 pm

ramsej84 wrote:Without entering the Venezuela question I do believe that some dictators are put in place by some hidden forces in order to serve and please the same hidden forces, then when they (the chosen dictators) have fulfilled their duties they will be removed... only to be replaced by new puppets!


You're right of course. At the end of the day though, everyone makes an imperfect decision based on imperfect information.

I've been studying the First World War in my spare time recently, and man if I no longer know who was the good guy in all that. And to think so many millions died for the ambitions of a Kaiser, the incompetence of a Czar, the moralizing of a President. I can almost understand the Bolsheviks anger at the elites using the masses, until they start seizing power for themselves. I understand the Entente trying to stop German militarism, until I see the German frustration at the double standard of the British using civilian ships to transport arms and the way the Allies secretly offered territorial gain in exchange for alliances.
而剑法的最高境界,则是手中无剑,心中也无剑,是以大胸怀,包容一切。那便是不杀,便是和平。-英雄
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Re: World News Thread

Postby ottackon » Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:46 pm

Look pyrasur, if you want to put forward specific and contradictory arguments against what I said earlier about Venezuela, then be my guest, but to talk at random like you do, it's just a waste of time, with all due respect.

@Punkcapitalist : I figured out what you're doing, steer the conversation on some special cases to try to discredit my point of view which deals with the big picture, but the truth is that:

1- You have not answered any of my points.
2- You try to make me look like a half-witted conspiracy theorist.
3- You speak to me haughtily as if you were God the Father.

The most striking thing is that debating on political or societal matters is almost impossible around here without flying off the handle. In fact, as soon as someone dares to contradict the doxa with arguments/facts, he is immediately mocked, ridiculed, or insulted in a hardly covered manner.
It is quite ironic to be accused of supporting dictatorships by the same people who refuse you the right to defend your ideas.
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Re: World News Thread

Postby PunkCapitalist » Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:54 pm

pyrasur wrote:
ramsej84 wrote:Without entering the Venezuela question I do believe that some dictators are put in place by some hidden forces in order to serve and please the same hidden forces, then when they (the chosen dictators) have fulfilled their duties they will be removed... only to be replaced by new puppets!


You're right of course. At the end of the day though, everyone makes an imperfect decision based on imperfect information.

I've been studying the First World War in my spare time recently, and man if I no longer know who was the good guy in all that. And to think so many millions died for the ambitions of a Kaiser, the incompetence of a Czar, the moralizing of a President. I can almost understand the Bolsheviks anger at the elites using the masses, until they start seizing power for themselves. I understand the Entente trying to stop German militarism, until I see the German frustration at the double standard of the British using civilian ships to transport arms and the way the Allies secretly offered territorial gain in exchange for alliances.

Yeah. Whenever you get yourself soaked in any political subject you learn there are literally no "good" sides. It's almost always bad against worse. There are just some sides in history that are so incredibly and unilaterally bad, that taking sides against them is necessary, even if you're siding with others you also don't like.

FGS, I hate the Venezuelan opposition. I could go on and on about how stupid, incompetent, corrupt they are... But anything they might do wrong, the Chavista government does 100 times worse..

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Re: World News Thread

Postby PunkCapitalist » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:00 pm

ottackon wrote:Look pyrasur, if you want to put forward specific and contradictory arguments against what I said earlier about Venezuela, then be my guest, but to talk at random like you do, it's just a waste of time, with all due respect.

@Punkcapitalist : I figured out what you're doing, steer the conversation on some special cases to try to discredit my point of view which deals with the big picture, but the truth is that:

1- You have not answered any of my points.
2- You try to make me look like a half-witted conspiracy theorist.
3- You speak to me haughtily as if you were God the Father.

The most striking thing is that debating on political or societal matters is almost impossible around here without flying off the handle. In fact, as soon as someone dares to contradict the doxa with arguments/facts, he is immediately mocked, ridiculed, or insulted in a hardly covered manner.
It is quite ironic to be accused of supporting dictatorships by the same people who refuse you the right to defend your ideas.

Defend your ideas then... I posted a series of questions that need answering. I know what your answer will be and I want you to state them clearly. Venezuela is a dictatorship, regardless of how you wanna paint it.

I can't answer your arguments because disproving an "international economic war against the union of latinoamerican people to rob them of their resources" is impossible. How do I disprove that such a conspiracy exists?

Yes 2002 was a coup. It's been 15 years though, leadership has changed and also chavismo has changed. Back when Chávez was alive, I would be the first to say "Chavez is an authoritarian and his policy is shit, but he is not a dictator, he has won popular vote and broadly adhered to the Constitution (*broadly*)".
The Chavez government was the very worst of democracy at play. Democracy at it's very worst, but democracy nonetheless.

But that is no longer the case under Maduro. This a full-time dictatorship. By all measures. No escaping that. No matter how many times they try to justify it by claiming "economic war" and "emergency state", they are a dictatorship. They have produced such ridiculous ad-hoc legal excuses for everything that the Venezuelan Constitution no longer has any meaning.

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Re: World News Thread

Postby ramsej84 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:41 pm

pyrasur wrote:You can try and delegitimize what I'm saying if you want. If you want to adopt the same tactics that the governments you admire use, that's up to you.

I at least recognize that I am taught my perspective from a certain 'class' (if you will) of people that come to the United States because they were evicted from their country by the people you support. I read about what's going on around the world, i try and get news on Ukraine and South America. I may be American, but we have plenty of Russians who fled Putin, Cubans who fled Castro, the list goes on. At some point I believe them that it's the democracy against despotism. I know my side isn't always nice, but neither I don't think is yours.

As an example, what I really don't understand is how you can say Assad is democratically elected and it's not a big deal he's bombing his own people in order to stay in power, but it's ok that left wing revolutionaries seized their countries by force and rig the political system. It seems like a double standard.

I'm sorry we disagree. Again I respect you, I don't agree with your opinions but it's nothing personal.

Assad is not doing what you said

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World News Thread

Postby pyrasur » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:53 pm

It seems this debate is a waste of time, and I apologize for wasting yours ottackon. It's your choice to believe what you want, but it's sad to me to see you buy into the propaganda.

I merely note the irony of someone complaining about the interference of the IS government in foreign affairs, when your side has invaded Ukraine, hacked our elections, and suppressed the will of the people.
而剑法的最高境界,则是手中无剑,心中也无剑,是以大胸怀,包容一切。那便是不杀,便是和平。-英雄
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Re: World News Thread

Postby ottackon » Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:40 pm

PunkCapitalist wrote:
ottackon wrote:Look pyrasur, if you want to put forward specific and contradictory arguments against what I said earlier about Venezuela, then be my guest, but to talk at random like you do, it's just a waste of time, with all due respect.

@Punkcapitalist : I figured out what you're doing, steer the conversation on some special cases to try to discredit my point of view which deals with the big picture, but the truth is that:

1- You have not answered any of my points.
2- You try to make me look like a half-witted conspiracy theorist.
3- You speak to me haughtily as if you were God the Father.

The most striking thing is that debating on political or societal matters is almost impossible around here without flying off the handle. In fact, as soon as someone dares to contradict the doxa with arguments/facts, he is immediately mocked, ridiculed, or insulted in a hardly covered manner.
It is quite ironic to be accused of supporting dictatorships by the same people who refuse you the right to defend your ideas.

Defend your ideas then... I posted a series of questions that need answering. I know what your answer will be and I want you to state them clearly. Venezuela is a dictatorship, regardless of how you wanna paint it.

I can't answer your arguments because disproving an "international economic war against the union of latinoamerican people to rob them of their resources" is impossible. How do I disprove that such a conspiracy exists?

Yes 2002 was a coup. It's been 15 years though, leadership has changed and also chavismo has changed. Back when Chávez was alive, I would be the first to say "Chavez is an authoritarian and his policy is shit, but he is not a dictator, he has won popular vote and broadly adhered to the Constitution (*broadly*)".
The Chavez government was the very worst of democracy at play. Democracy at it's very worst, but democracy nonetheless.

But that is no longer the case under Maduro. This a full-time dictatorship. By all measures. No escaping that. No matter how many times they try to justify it by claiming "economic war" and "emergency state", they are a dictatorship. They have produced such ridiculous ad-hoc legal excuses for everything that the Venezuelan Constitution no longer has any meaning.

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The first time, you urge me to shut my trap, now you give me permission to defend my point of view, how generous of you !

Courtesy would like you to first answer specifically the points that I have raised, but it doesn't matter as the most fundemntal question is : Why is Venezuela in the midst of a very severe crisis ?

I admit it's not an easy question to answer as I depicted it for the sake of simplification. This is not merely because Venezuela’s crisis has multiple causes. Nor is it because some of the causes, and potential solutions, to the crisis are quite technical. The difficulty lies, rather, in the challenge, of disentangling the “internal” and “external” aspects of the crisis.

On one hand, to an agonizingly large degree, including yourself, Venezuela’s crisis is of the government’s own making. Instead of easing or ending it, the government’s action or perhaps inactions, over the last several years have made it far worse. Yet, and this is why you're wide of the mark, the government has not acted in a vacuum, but in a hostile domestic and international environment. The opposition has openly and repeatedly pushed for regime change by any means necessary since 1999. In addition to fostering a politically toxic climate, the opposition’s actions over the past four years like its refusal to recognize Maduro’s 2013 victory, despite absolutely no evidence of electoral fraud; ensuing violence that targeted state-run facilities; another wave of violence beginning in 2014 that left several dead, approximately half of them due to opposition actions; and recent and repeated calls for military and foreign intervention, have also had a very damaging economic effect.
Furthermore and as I mentioned earlier, the private sector is accused of abusing preferential exchange rates meant to keep food, basic goods, and medicines affordable, helping cause food shortages. In other words, as is common with states that have economies built around oil, the availability of dollars means it is often cheaper to import goods instead of producing them domestically, but the private business would lie about what was imported or produced in order to allegedly stash dollars away in offshore accounts or sell the goods at the illegal black-market.


On the other hand, the US government has not only cheered, and funded, these anti-democratic actions. By absurdly declaring that Venezuela is an “unusual and extraordinary threat” to US national security and pressuring investors and bankers to steer clear of the Maduro administration, the White House has prevented Venezuela from obtaining much-needed foreign financing and investment.

An honest account of the crisis must include both of these aspects: the government’s costly errors and I admit that I didn't broach this subject on my first take (Runaway inflation, low to negative economic growth, high levels of corruption in the public sector, and so on) and the destabilizing actions of the opposition and US government. To ignore one or the other is to simply misrepresent reality.

The other problem I have with your narrative is that you accuse your country of being a dictatorship. A dictatorship is when you have a form of government in which one person or one party like in North Korea possesses absolute power without effective constitutional limitations which is absultely not the case of Venezuela.The ruling Socialist Party has been repeatedly affirmed at the polls, winning twelve of fifteen major elections between 1998 and 2015 fair and square. The government has immediately conceded on the rare occasions when it has suffered defeat, including last parliamentary elections.

Once again, the government’s actions have not always been beyond reproach. Criticisms that Chavez and Maduro have interfered with judicial independence, for example, appear to have some merit. And I believe there are other similar cases as well of authoritarianism but it's not specific to Venezuela alone.
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Re: World News Thread

Postby ottackon » Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:48 pm

pyrasur wrote:It seems this debate is a waste of time, and I apologize for wasting yours ottackon. It's your choice to believe what you want, but it's sad to me to see you buy into the propaganda.

I merely note the irony of someone complaining about the interference of the IS government in foreign affairs, when your side has invaded Ukraine, hacked our elections, and suppressed the will of the people.

OK it's noted.
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Re: World News Thread

Postby PunkCapitalist » Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:20 pm

I had written a full detailed response , but lost it on a browser login problem. I'm too lazy to write it again.

Let's just say the gist of why you're arguments are wrong is that Chavista policy has always had clearly predictable bad results, they ignore this clear predictable consequences and proceed to blame the policies' failure on the private sector/"expeculators"/the US/ the "Oligarchy". This is the case of known bad policy moves such as price controls, foreign currency exchange controls (with wide differentials to the market equilibrium rate), unrealistic subsidies, etc. They ran out of money because of the oil bust (due to Shale Oil) and now the whole country is paying the price for their incompetence.

As an illustrative example, the kind of things Chavista do are: regulate flour price and baguette price to levels way below equilibrium price, no flour is to be found at official rates and bakeries have to buy at black market prices, bakeries no longer make baguettes cause they can't earn enough money on them to justify their business, they begin using flour to make pizza and donuts (which aren't regulated), the government accuses them of "economic war" and puts a few small bakery owners in jail for it. I'm not making this up. This is what happens in Venezuela.

Beyond that, as I said, Chávez was democracy go terribly terribly wrong, but he was no pure dictator. Despite his authoritarian impulses he kept himself narrowly within a the law (most of the time). Maduro is a dictator. Constitution means absolutely nothing to him and he has made such absurd legal gimmicks that there is just not possible justification any more.

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Re: World News Thread

Postby ramsej84 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:50 pm

Watch: Journalist asking about Mizzi's Dubai account shoved out of the way; Minister orders action against aggressor
Admonished for continuing to question minister [source]
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Re: World News Thread

Postby ramsej84 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:59 am

Russians were the main recipients of Maltese citizenship in 2015, EU figures show.
A breakdown of the approved citizenship applications provided by the European Union’s statistics office, Eurostat, shows that 646 applicants were granted Maltese citizenship two years ago.
Just over 40 per cent, or 258, were Russians, Eurostat said. The second largest group of new citizens were from the United Kingdom, at eight per cent, and Ukraine, four per cent.
The granting of Maltese citizenship to foreigners has been a contentious issue since 2013. [source]
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