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Hooliganism - What are your thoughts on it?

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Hooliganism - What are your thoughts on it?

Postby tracylynn » Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:41 am

It seems like lately that hooliganism is raising its ugly head again. First off, there was the police officer getting killed in Italy, and then there was that serious incident in Rome with the Man. United and Roma fans and the police, and then the incident with the Totten and Sevilla fans. It's a shame that these ***holes (they're not fans) are ruining the fun and joy that this game gives to so many fans. Something needs to be done, but what?

I decided to talk about this because I was watching Fox Football Fone-In show and they were talking about hooliganism. I agreed with the hosts on a few things but not all. First of all, they made it seem like that the English fans were innocent and that they should not go to other countries to watch their team play unless they're going to be treated with respect. I disagree with that because 1) that lets the other fans win and 2) they're not all innocent. Some Englsih fans do go and start trouble and that is common with all teams and nationalities.

What I agreed with was the comment about UEFA and them having to get the balls and stand up to the Italian league. Italy has got a bad problem with hooliganism as of late and it doesn't seem like they really want to stop it. Yeah, they agree to provide better security but as to what cost? Heck, the police themselves seem to be involved in some of the problems. Anyways, the host were saying that UEFA needs to tell them that they need to fix the problems (fans and police) or they won't be allowed to compete in the CL, UEFA Cup, or Euros. I agree with this.

Any thoughts on this?
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Postby Paddy » Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:46 am

I don´t have a problem with it, if its arranged. I mean if the groups fight each other. It´s interesting to watch...but when innocent people get involved it sucks.
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Postby Sam » Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:59 am

You don't have a problem with it if it's 'arranged'? I happen to disagree. I believe that the solution to this problem is within the grasp of the clubs themselves. Someone is caught being violent and assaulting another clubs fan? Zero tolerance. Ban them from attending another game for 12 months. If they re-offend, ban them for 3 years. And again, ban them for life. When fans realize violent behavior means no more football, they will fall into line. The trick is getting EVERY club in Europe to adopt the same measures.

I think the problem lies in that the clubs view these 'ultras' as fundamental to the success of their team - but it's simply not true. The stadiums will still be filled with fans, even if you ban 100 or 200 of the trouble makers. I think its a fact that it's the minority that cause these problems, and we should just remove them. Allowing it to continue is just going to empower these individuals more, and make it harder to remove them at a later stage.

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Postby Paddy » Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:25 pm

Sam wrote:You don't have a problem with it if it's 'arranged'? I happen to disagree. I believe that the solution to this problem is within the grasp of the clubs themselves. Someone is caught being violent and assaulting another clubs fan? Zero tolerance. Ban them from attending another game for 12 months. If they re-offend, ban them for 3 years. And again, ban them for life. When fans realize violent behavior means no more football, they will fall into line. The trick is getting EVERY club in Europe to adopt the same measures.

I think the problem lies in that the clubs view these 'ultras' as fundamental to the success of their team - but it's simply not true. The stadiums will still be filled with fans, even if you ban 100 or 200 of the trouble makers. I think its a fact that it's the minority that cause these problems, and we should just remove them. Allowing it to continue is just going to empower these individuals more, and make it harder to remove them at a later stage.

My $.02


I actually like them. I mean if people wanna fight, let them fight...as lon as they dont hurt buildings, cars and other people who don´t wanna fight.
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Postby MUTU » Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:39 pm

Paddy wrote:I actually like them. I mean if people wanna fight, let them fight...as lon as they dont hurt buildings, cars and other people who don´t wanna fight.


What about the families of people who get injured? I'm sure they are hurt, not physically but mentally. What about the innocent kids who are impressed and given a bad message by viewing the scenes? And of course innocent people get involved... they infallibly do.

To me what you're saying would be the same as saying they should remove speed limits for cars, as long as you don't hurt other people.

----

As regards my opinion to hooliganism is that I think there's a big fuss about it. I would much rather that UEFA/FIFA crack down on other issues which are directly affecting football, i.e. corruption and cheating, but they don't seem to be determined enough to do it. If your team is going to get eliminated by away goals rule and it's injury time and you take an obvious dive to try and win a penalty, why is the biggest possible punishment a yellow card? Big deal, huh? I'd give the player a 6 month suspension from all competitions if I was in charge.

Now tell me, if you were the Australian player over which Grosso dived to get the penalty in the World Cup, wouldn't you rather have been punched and got your nose broken (as Burdisso did by Navarro)? I, for one, would. I'm sure most players would as well. The problem is that FIFA gave the player no punishment, even though his dive had affected the whole World Cup (Italy went on to win it. Perhaps had the ref seen rightly, Australia would have eliminated Italy). Not only that, but he went on to score the decisive goal against Germany in the semifinal. On the other end of the scale, Navarro got a huge punishment for punching a player who was physically attacking his teammates. To me, this isn't fair.
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Postby diegis » Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:12 pm

Sam wrote:I think the problem lies in that the clubs view these 'ultras' as fundamental to the success of their team - but it's simply not true. The stadiums will still be filled with fans, even if you ban 100 or 200 of the trouble makers. I think its a fact that it's the minority that cause these problems, and we should just remove them. Allowing it to continue is just going to empower these individuals more, and make it harder to remove them at a later stage.

My $.02

hmm
dont confuse ultras with hooligans
tho ultras groups can become violent, the matches go ahead with no incidents or even small scuffles. unlike hooligans whose main aim is to fight with the away fans, ultras only focuses on supporting their own team.
i agree with ultras movement but not with hooliganism. i even assisted to some fights between fans and police/away fans and its not funny at all.
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Postby Sam » Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:18 pm

You believe a hardcore group of fans should be able to affect team line ups, cash bonuses, and ticketing of a club? Because thats what they do. And if the club don't do as the ultras want, their are consequences. Go look up ultras in Italy on google. Ultras are the extreme end of hooliganism. Thats like saying the mafia is ok, as long as we all pay protection money, there is no violence. Therefore they are fine to have around, right?
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Postby Paddy » Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:50 pm

MUTU wrote:
Paddy wrote:I actually like them. I mean if people wanna fight, let them fight...as lon as they dont hurt buildings, cars and other people who don´t wanna fight.


What about the families of people who get injured? I'm sure they are hurt, not physically but mentally. What about the innocent kids who are impressed and given a bad message by viewing the scenes? And of course innocent people get involved... they infallibly do.

To me what you're saying would be the same as saying they should remove speed limits for cars, as long as you don't hurt other people.

----

As regards my opinion to hooliganism is that I think there's a big fuss about it. I would much rather that UEFA/FIFA crack down on other issues which are directly affecting football, i.e. corruption and cheating, but they don't seem to be determined enough to do it. If your team is going to get eliminated by away goals rule and it's injury time and you take an obvious dive to try and win a penalty, why is the biggest possible punishment a yellow card? Big deal, huh? I'd give the player a 6 month suspension from all competitions if I was in charge.

Now tell me, if you were the Australian player over which Grosso dived to get the penalty in the World Cup, wouldn't you rather have been punched and got your nose broken (as Burdisso did by Navarro)? I, for one, would. I'm sure most players would as well. The problem is that FIFA gave the player no punishment, even though his dive had affected the whole World Cup (Italy went on to win it. Perhaps had the ref seen rightly, Australia would have eliminated Italy). Not only that, but he went on to score the decisive goal against Germany in the semifinal. On the other end of the scale, Navarro got a huge punishment for punching a player who was physically attacking his teammates. To me, this isn't fair.


No its not like that, you put in danger others too if ur speeding.... here its like...if ppl wanna fight and do so willingly...i dont see any problems...well if ur an adult....I mean no one shouldnt tell you what to do if you dont hurt anyone else....if 2 or more ppl want to fight each other...u cant stop them...so why is this crap all about? Its their life ...dont try to f*ck with it....
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Postby MUTU » Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:13 pm

Paddy wrote:No its not like that, you put in danger others too if ur speeding


Your argument is a bit flawed in my opinion, because if you're fighting (or just beating someone up) then you're also putting others in danger. If you grab a seat and throw it, you might hit someone. I once was at a match when out of the blue the opposing fans started hurling seats, and what made me realise was a seat landing right next to me. I was like "what the heck?" and suddenly I see other seats flying in my direction. Now I was there, quietly watching the match and not even shouting. Same as the old lady walking quietly on the pavement and gets run over by a speeding car...

If you fight, it means you will try to hurt someone. Whether he's also trying to hurt you or not doesn't matter, it's fundamentally wrong unless used to defend oneself. People are not allowed to willingfully harm themselves or other willing people. That's why suicide attempts are against the law for example.
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Postby Paddy » Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:46 pm

MUTU wrote:
Paddy wrote:No its not like that, you put in danger others too if ur speeding


Your argument is a bit flawed in my opinion, because if you're fighting (or just beating someone up) then you're also putting others in danger. If you grab a seat and throw it, you might hit someone. I once was at a match when out of the blue the opposing fans started hurling seats, and what made me realise was a seat landing right next to me. I was like "what the heck?" and suddenly I see other seats flying in my direction. Now I was there, quietly watching the match and not even shouting. Same as the old lady walking quietly on the pavement and gets run over by a speeding car...

If you fight, it means you will try to hurt someone. Whether he's also trying to hurt you or not doesn't matter, it's fundamentally wrong unless used to defend oneself. People are not allowed to willingfully harm themselves or other willing people. That's why suicide attempts are against the law for example.


Yeah and how you gonna punish suicide? I mean why they gonna do? :? Put your ass in prison? hah...
And if a pwerson is so weak to commit suicide...let him.... And I was thinking more like...when people pick time and place and beat each other there...iun public its qrong and should be punished...

And lol dude...if I cut myself, what anyone can do about it? (not saying i would that´s for weak people).
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Postby tracylynn » Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:48 pm

I'm going to put hooligans and ultras together because, IMO, there really is not that much difference between the two. Both have bad reputations and both don't serve the sport in any positive way.

With that being I have to say that this is a very interesting discussion and it's been pretty civilized (wow!). I think the guilty individual should be banned for life. Period. No second or third chances for any individual caught misbehaving.

Personally, I think if anyone wants to fight then they can go and watch or participate in boxing or extreme fighting club (whatever it's called). Whether directing or indirectly, someone always gets hurt. Look at the policeman who lost his life. Who got hurt? Him, of course, but also his family who lost a father and husband. Fighting and any type of violence has no place in the beautiful sport of football.
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Postby MUTU » Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:51 pm

Paddy wrote:Yeah and how you gonna punish suicide? I mean why they gonna do? :? Put your ass in prison? hah...


If you are stopped in time, or if your attempt is unsuccessful, you generally get arrested.
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Postby podolski4life » Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:54 pm

As for ultras, UEFA needs a complete crackdown on this. Several English fans were stabbed by ultras a few years ago, but UEFA said it was "out of our jurisdiction." I agree with Sam's idea: ban them. Some of the stabbings happened outside of the match, so get the government to do something. Once something is done with the ultras/radicals/extremists, hooliganism should go down.

As for hooliganism, UEFA needs to do something for better stewarding, security, and police. In the Tottenham/Seville incident, I don't know who started it, but the riot police were part of the problem. I think that's probably the only way to deal with it for now.
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Postby Paddy » Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:01 pm

MUTU wrote:
Paddy wrote:Yeah and how you gonna punish suicide? I mean why they gonna do? :? Put your ass in prison? hah...


If you are stopped in time, or if your attempt is unsuccessful, you generally get arrested.


Yeah sure...ppl who find u will report u to police and have proof that u did it? hah...you just say no and ur free...oh and if you get arrested theres plenty ways to die anywhere... But I´m gonna wait for reaper to come knocking... :lol:
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Postby diegis » Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:16 pm

tracylynn wrote:I'm going to put hooligans and ultras together because, IMO, there really is not that much difference between the two. Both have bad reputations and both don't serve the sport in any positive way.

you are wrong
here is the difference


The Ultras movement, or simply Ultras, is the name given to organized supporters groups for sports teams, mostly European and South American supporters of football teams. This fan sub-group appeared in Italy during the late 1960s when football teams reduced ticket prices in certain areas of the stadiums.
Ultra groups are surprisingly homogeneous. They are usually based around a core group (who tend to have "executive control" over the group), with smaller sub-groups organized by location, friendship or political stance.
The four core points of ultra mentality are:
* Never stop singing and chanting during a match, no matter what the result,
* Never sit down during a match,
* Attend as many games as possible, Home and Away. Regardless of cost or distance,
* Loyalty to the stand in which the group is located, also known as the Curva.
.....



A hooligan firm (or a simply a firm) is an organised gang that supports a football team, formed with the intent to engage in fights with members of firms from other clubs.
Fights mostly take place far away from the stadiums, to make it as hard as possible for police and other authorities to interrupt.

Some football firms, especially in southern and eastern Europe, have been linked with extreme right political groups, but other firms have been associated with leftist or anti-racist views. It should be noted that the firms' political views are not representative of all supporters of the teams.

Football hooliganism has been featured in films such as I.D., The Firm and Green Street, (the latter featuring fictional firms based on West Ham's' Inter City Firm (ICF) and Millwall's The Treatment). There are also many books about hooliganism, such as The Football Factory (also a film) and Among the Thugs. Some contend that such media representations glamorise violence and the hooligan lifestyle.


the roma fans that you saw in manchester are hooligans not ultras.
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