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Happy Holidays!!!

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Re: Happy Holidays!!!

Postby ottackon » Sat May 27, 2017 9:56 pm

ramsej84 wrote:
ottackon wrote:
FCBayernMunchen wrote:
Edit: one thing I find interesting about Muslims is that whatever language you are speaking, you always refer to God as Allah. It always sounded strange to me. That's probably because I speak Maltese and our word for God is Alla. You go into our Catholic churches and Alla is what you'll hear. It also has the plural "allat" to refer to the pagan gods so for me it's really just the word that refers to that kind of thing, rather than to a specific entity (the Muslim God).

If we pronounce the words "Allah" in Arabic and "Elahh (pronounced as 'El-aw')" in Aramaic (Jesus and his disciples primarily spoke Aramaic), then we would hear almost the same exact word.

Exactly , first Christians spoke Aramaic(a defunct language) then to market the new Religion the most imp languages of the time were used (Latin and Greek) ...
The film by Mel Gibson , "the Passion of the Christ" was in Aramaic with English subtitles

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Re: Happy Holidays!!!

Postby PunkCapitalist » Sat May 27, 2017 9:59 pm

Dumbledore7 wrote:Yeah I agree, that would've been nice.

I got curious about something. Do most Muslims actually abstain from alcohol? I mean, I know it's forbidden, but do most Muslims actually comply?

I guess they don't have much of a choice in countries were it is also legally forbidden. How do you feel about that (legal prohibition)?

Gambling?

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Re: Happy Holidays!!!

Postby ramsej84 » Sat May 27, 2017 10:50 pm

I can tell that many who live here especially the young ones do not observe that rule...

Ah yeah I forgot Jahweh

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Re: Happy Holidays!!!

Postby Dumbledore7 » Sat May 27, 2017 10:51 pm

(Soon enough, we'll need a new thread :lol: )

PunkCapitalist wrote:
Dumbledore7 wrote:Yeah I agree, that would've been nice.

I got curious about something. Do most Muslims actually abstain from alcohol? I mean, I know it's forbidden, but do most Muslims actually comply?

I guess they don't have much of a choice in countries were it is also legally forbidden. How do you feel about that (legal prohibition)?

Gambling?

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Good question. Everyone in any religion is a sinner and just to note, my answer will stem from my observation as someone who's from the country with largest Muslim population (but not considered as a Muslim country) and also as someone who has immersed in the western culture very young.

In Indonesia, I would say that most of the time, people do abstain. There are many ways to commit a sin, but I would say that alcohol, gambling and pork are the three "cardinals" that even the naughtiest sinners would think twice of doing. Maybe because to us, they are also culturally frowned upon.

There is a growing number of those who break even these, perhaps due to some rebellious urge. I consider them who commit these at a liberal manner to be non-Muslims as much as they still try to label themselves as such, i.e. they are intentionally doing something "haraam" (which I guess is a term most people are aware of nowadays).

On the flipside, Muslim practice is not only defined by what's not allowed but also what you must do: praying 5 times a day, fasting during Ramadan and doing charity amongst others. The most common sin I would say is not doing these things (I'm sometimes guilty of that), as opposed to doing those that are forbidden. When people consume alcohol or pork and gamble, it's more likely that they also completely neglect what they must do, so they're not just at the far end of the spectrum, but maybe pretty much outside.

Now, after I move to the UK, in the international student community, the number of kids from countries like Iran, Iraq, Azerbaijan who fall into this category would be alarming in Indonesia. At the beginning I was shocked that they drink very easily, for instance. And these are the "Muslim countries" where most of those things forbidden by Islam are also illegal.

I am strongly against outlawing those that are forbidden by religion. For one, it seems to work in reverse - the more it's outlawed, the more elusive it gets, and human nature works its magic as we all know.

Second of all, and more importantly, it is my believe (from proper religious studies) that religion works from bottom to top, not top to bottom. In other words, a society should not be shaped based on a religious prescription, but a society should prosper if the individuals adopt religious principles. The most cultured societies that incorporate Islam and other religions with tolerance, ancient ones in the Mediterranean for instance, were amongst the most prosperous societies historically. On top of that, there is absolutely nothing on the Koran about government/politics and how laws are enforced. I believe imposing laws based on religion is a systemic misinterpretation.
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Re: Happy Holidays!!!

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Sat May 27, 2017 10:54 pm

ottackon wrote:I really like to read about "Comparative religion", especially Mediterranean religions, including Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Zoroastrianism, and a variety of ancient cults, as we have the chance to live in the richest part of the world historically and culturally.

I have a friend who's very interested in that topic and plans to conduct research in it eventually. It's really fascinating judging by some of the stuff this person has told me.

PunkCapitalist wrote:I got curious about something. Do most Muslims actually abstain from alcohol? I mean, I know it's forbidden, but do most Muslims actually comply?


There are different "sects". I think the majority do follow this rule but some of them don't. As far as I know Sufism is one of those.

We have quite a number of Arab students at our university. The majority don't drink but then you find those who party hard and get wasted as well. There are even a small number of females who don't wear the hijab. I believe they're all practising Muslims.
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Re: Happy Holidays!!!

Postby PunkCapitalist » Sat May 27, 2017 11:15 pm

Interesting. You know, I once read that the reason Mohammed banned gambling was because it was done together with infidels. Don't know if it's true or not but i think I read it in the commentary of my (translated) Quoran.

I was just thinking that a ban on drinking, if actually complied with, could be detrimental to integration. After all, alcohol drinking (specially at parties/clubs) is probably a very significant socializing mechanism for young people in Western Countries.

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Re: Happy Holidays!!!

Postby ottackon » Sat May 27, 2017 11:19 pm

Dumbledore7 wrote:Good question. Everyone in any religion is a sinner and just to note, my answer will stem from my observation as someone who's from the country with largest Muslim population (but not considered as a Muslim country) and also as someone who has immersed in the western culture very young.

In Indonesia, I would say that most of the time, people do abstain. There are many ways to commit a sin, but I would say that alcohol, gambling and pork are the three "cardinals" that even the naughtiest sinners would think twice of doing. Maybe because to us, they are also culturally frowned upon.

There is a growing number of those who break even these, perhaps due to some rebellious urge. I consider them who commit these at a liberal manner to be non-Muslims as much as they still try to label themselves as such, i.e. they are intentionally doing something "haraam" (which I guess is a term most people are aware of nowadays).

On the flipside, Muslim practice is not only defined by what's not allowed but also what you must do: praying 5 times a day, fasting during Ramadan and doing charity amongst others. The most common sin I would say is not doing these things (I'm sometimes guilty of that), as opposed to doing those that are forbidden. When people consume alcohol or pork and gamble, it's more likely that they also completely neglect what they must do, so they're not just at the far end of the spectrum, but maybe pretty much outside.

Now, after I move to the UK, in the international student community, the number of kids from countries like Iran, Iraq, Azerbaijan who fall into this category would be alarming in Indonesia. At the beginning I was shocked that they drink very easily, for instance. And these are the "Muslim countries" where most of those things forbidden by Islam are also illegal.

I am strongly against outlawing those that are forbidden by religion. For one, it seems to work in reverse - the more it's outlawed, the more elusive it gets, and human nature works its magic as we all know.

Second of all, and more importantly, it is my believe (from proper religious studies) that religion works from bottom to top, not top to bottom. In other words, a society should not be shaped based on a religious prescription, but a society should prosper if the individuals adopt religious principles. The most cultured societies that incorporate Islam and other religions with tolerance, ancient ones in the Mediterranean for instance, were amongst the most prosperous societies historically. On top of that, there is absolutely nothing on the Koran about government/politics and how laws are enforced. I believe imposing laws based on religion is a systemic misinterpretation.


As a world religion, Islam is practiced in diverse cultures in Africa, the Middle East, Asia, Europe, and America. Differences in religious and cultural practices are therefore wide-ranging. Although there are no denominations in Islam such as exist in the Christian faith (Roman Catholic, Methodist, Episcopalian, Lutheran, etc.), like all faiths, Islam has developed divisions, sects, and schools of thought over various issues. While we Muslims share certain beliefs and practices, such as belief in God, the Quran, Muhammad peace be upon him, and the Five Pillars of Islam, divisions have arisen over questions of political and religious leadership, theology and interpretations of Islamic law.

But perhaps nowhere are the differences in Islam more visible than in the responses to modernity. Since the nineteenth century, Muslims have struggled with the relationship of the religious tradition developed in premodern times to the new demands (religious, political, economic, and social) of the modern world. The issues are not only about Islam's accommodation to change but also about the relationship of Islam to the West, since much of modern change is associated with Western ideas, institutions, and values. Muslim responses to issues of reform and modernization have spanned the spectrum from secularists and Islamic modernists to religious conservatives or traditionalists, "fundamentalists," and Islamic reformists.

Modern secularists are Western oriented and advocate a separation between religion and the rest of society, including politics. They believe that religion is and should be strictly a private matter. Islamic modernists believe that Islam and modernity, particularly science and technology, are compatible, so that Islam should inform public life without necessarily dominating it. The other groups are more "Islamically" oriented but have different opinions as to the role Islam should play in public life. Conservatives, or traditionalists, emphasize the authority of the past and tend to call for a reimplementation of Islamic laws and norms as they existed in that past. "Fundamentalists" emphasize going back to the earliest period and teachings of Islam, believing that the Islamic tradition needs to be purified of popular, cultural, and Western beliefs and practices that have "corrupted" Islam.
However, the term fundamentalist is applied to such a broad spectrum of Islamic movements and actors that, in the end, it includes both those who simply want to reintroduce or restore their pure and puritanical vision of a romanticized past and others who advocate modern reforms that are rooted in Islamic principles and values. There are a number of Islamic reformers, intellectuals, and religious leaders who also emphasize the critical need for an Islamic reformation, a wide-ranging program of reinterpretation ( ijtihad ) and reform urging fresh approaches to Quranic interpretation.
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Re: Happy Holidays!!!

Postby ramsej84 » Sat May 27, 2017 11:23 pm

Correct me if I am wrong.
Alcohol is still obtained from fruits though right? Is it true that many end up drinking this type of alcohol (which is very strong)?

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Re: Happy Holidays!!!

Postby Dumbledore7 » Sat May 27, 2017 11:56 pm

ottackon wrote:Modern secularists are Western oriented and advocate a separation between religion and the rest of society, including politics. They believe that religion is and should be strictly a private matter. Islamic modernists believe that Islam and modernity, particularly science and technology, are compatible, so that Islam should inform public life without necessarily dominating it. The other groups are more "Islamically" oriented but have different opinions as to the role Islam should play in public life. Conservatives, or traditionalists, emphasize the authority of the past and tend to call for a reimplementation of Islamic laws and norms as they existed in that past. "Fundamentalists" emphasize going back to the earliest period and teachings of Islam, believing that the Islamic tradition needs to be purified of popular, cultural, and Western beliefs and practices that have "corrupted" Islam.
However, the term fundamentalist is applied to such a broad spectrum of Islamic movements and actors that, in the end, it includes both those who simply want to reintroduce or restore their pure and puritanical vision of a romanticized past and others who advocate modern reforms that are rooted in Islamic principles and values. There are a number of Islamic reformers, intellectuals, and religious leaders who also emphasize the critical need for an Islamic reformation, a wide-ranging program of reinterpretation ( ijtihad ) and reform urging fresh approaches to Quranic interpretation.


Ah okay, I've got better names for these sects. The modern secularists are what I would call "western Muslims", the Islamic modernists are "people with Dumbledore7's approach to integration", the traditionalists are "most Indonesians", and the fundamentalists are "terrorists".

That was a little joke :P Sorry.

I agree with the challenge posed between traditional ideologies against western modernity. I am always compelled to move forward with my interpretations of the messages, hadiths or fatwahs, compromising accordingly as long as I maintain the 5 pillars and avoiding within reason what could be zalim. It's not perfect and there are some instance where I can't help myself if I get too deep in an activity that I know would be in somewhat of a grey area (not that I drink, I don't) in a conservative belief. After all there's the All-Forgiving who knows that I at least believe I know what I am doing.

An example is the coming out of bisexuality. Big thing in the west, with it being encouraged. My view as a practician is that, being gay is not a sin, it never was, but acting upon the impulse is. A man getting hot around another man, have sexual thoughts, all fine. When it comes to doing gay sex is when it's a problem. After all pre-marital activities of any kind is forbidden anyway so it's not even that different for straight people. Then comes the question of marriage, well I think marriage is a way to build a family. Gay people technically can't do that, so they should have no reason to marry anyway. I would stretch it as far as having a long-lasting relationship is fine. You can be a man and acknowledge an informal loving relationship with another man. You still do your prayers, practice fasting, avoid drinking, should be enough to not make you a worse Muslim than me, hell maybe I'm worse. The crux of it is just you can't commit to sex.

This view that I hold, I don't share a lot when I'm in the UK. I act absolutely indifferent to the uprising of LGBT, but I tend to tell this to some gay friends in Indonesia (not many at all). Especially in a country where this is a thing... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-39996224

It's all about compromise. We always have the All-Forgiving to get back to. If I have to pick what I want the moniker of Islam to be, I'd have it be a religion of tolerance, rather than peace. I am hoping that people will increasingly share this view.
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Re: Happy Holidays!!!

Postby Dumbledore7 » Sat May 27, 2017 11:58 pm

ramsej84 wrote:Correct me if I am wrong.
Alcohol is still obtained from fruits though right? Is it true that many end up drinking this type of alcohol (which is very strong)?

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I'm not sure I understand. It's really quite simple: it contains alcohol, it has the potential to get you drunk, bad thing. Otherwise, fine. Shouldn't have to matter where it comes from.
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Re: Happy Holidays!!!

Postby ottackon » Sun May 28, 2017 12:41 am

Dumbledore7 wrote:It's all about compromise. We always have the All-Forgiving to get back to. If I have to pick what I want the moniker of Islam to be, I'd have it be a religion of tolerance, rather than peace. I am hoping that people will increasingly share this view.

Despite the example of Daesh in the Middle East and sporadic conflicts between Muslims and Christians in Nigeria, Pakistan, and the Philippines, theologically and historically Islam has a long record of tolerance. The Quran clearly and strongly states that "there is to be no compulsion in religion", and that God has created not one but many nations and peoples. Many passages underscore the diversity of humankind. The Quran teaches that God deliberately created a world of diversity.

Muslims, like Christians and Jews before them, believe that they have been called to a special covenant relationship with God, constituting a community of believers intended to serve as an example to other nations in establishing a just social order. Moreover, we Muslims regard Jews and Christians as "People of the Book," people who have also received a revelation and a scripture from God (the Torah for Jews and the Gospels for Christians). The Quran and Islam recognize that followers of the three great Abrahamic religions, the children of Abraham, share a common belief in the one God, in biblical prophets such as Moses and Jesus, in human accountability, and in a Final Judgment followed by eternal reward or punishment. All share the common hope and promise of eternal reward.

Historically, while the early expansion and conquests spread Islamic rule, Muslims did not try to impose their religion on others or force them to convert. As "People of the Book," Jews and Christians were regarded as protected people ( dhimmi ), who were permitted to retain and practice their religions, be led by their own religious leaders, and be guided by their own religious laws and customs. For this protection, they paid a poll or head tax ( jizya ). While by modern standards this treatment amounted to second-class citizenship, in premodern times, it was very advanced. No such tolerance existed in Christendom, where Jews, Muslims, and other Christians (those who did not accept the authority of the pope) were subjected to forced conversion, persecution, or expulsion. Although the Islamic ideal was not followed everywhere and at all times, it existed and flourished in many contexts.

In recent years, religious intolerance has become an issue in self-styled Islamic governments in Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc. but especially in the actions of religious extremist organizations like Daesh who have been intolerant toward not only non-Muslims but also other Muslims who do not accept their version of "true Islam." The situation is exacerbated in some countries where Muslims have clashed with Christians (Nigeria, the Philippines, and Indonesia) and Hindus (India and Kashmir). These confrontations have sometimes been initiated by the Muslim community and sometimes by the Christian. In most cases it becomes difficult to distinguish whether conflicts are driven primarily by politics and economics or by religion.

Finally, all secular governments in Egypt, Tunisia, Turkey, Syria, and elsewhere have often proven to be intolerant of mainstream Islamic organizations or parties that offer an alternative vision of society or are critical of government policies. From Egypt to Indonesia and Europe to America, many Muslims today work to reexamine their faith in the light of the changing realities of their societies and their lives, developing new approaches to diversity and pluralism as they seek to reinterpret the sources of their faith to produce new religious understandings that speak to religious pluralism in the modern world. The need to redefine traditional notions of pluralism and tolerance is driven by the fact that in countries such as Egypt, Lebanon, Pakistan, India, Nigeria, Malaysia, and Indonesia, Muslims live in multireligious societies, and also by new demographic realities. Never before have so many Muslim minority communities existed across the world, in particular in America and Europe. The specter of living as a permanent minority community in non-Muslim countries has heightened the need to address and redefine questions of pluralism and tolerance. Muslim communities in America and Europe are now struggling with their questions of identity and assimilation. Reformers emphasize that diversity and pluralism are integral to the message of the Quran, which teaches that God created a world composed of different nations, ethnicities, tribes, and languages.

Many point to the example of the Prophet peace be upon him and his community at Medina. The Constitution of Medina accepted the coexistence of Muslims, Jews, and Christians. Muhammad peace be upon him discussed and debated with, and granted freedom of religious thought and practice to, the Jews and Christians, setting a precedent for peaceful and cooperative interreligious relations. Many challenge the exclusivist religious claims and intolerance of extremist groups who believe that they alone possess the "true" interpretation of Islam and attempt to impose it on other Muslims and non-Muslims alike.
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Re: Happy Holidays!!!

Postby MUTU » Sun May 28, 2017 6:58 am

Can you imagine if #12 was Muslim? I can't imagine the pessimism that would come out during Ramadan. Oh wait, actually we wouldn't notice it, he already hit the limit

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Re: Happy Holidays!!!

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Sun May 28, 2017 7:19 am

PunkCapitalist wrote:Interesting. You know, I once read that the reason Mohammed banned gambling was because it was done together with infidels. Don't know if it's true or not but i think I read it in the commentary of my (translated) Quoran.

I was just thinking that a ban on drinking, if actually complied with, could be detrimental to integration. After all, alcohol drinking (specially at parties/clubs) is probably a very significant socializing mechanism for young people in Western Countries.

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Mind you I think they're the ones who've got it right. Binge drinking is a huge problem among youths in the West.

I see no problem with having a beer with friends or a wine with dinner though. On the contrary I enjoy it.


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Re: Happy Holidays!!!

Postby FCB general » Sun May 28, 2017 9:34 am

FCBayernMunchen wrote:I see no problem with having a beer with friends or a wine with dinner though. On the contrary I enjoy it.

Read it:
http://www.crisismagazine.com/2015/how-to-drink-like-a-saint [source]


When I was young, the drink was some sort of initiation and proving among the friends, just like cigars. But I don't like cigars(mostly because of the costs and the smell that leaves, health after the mentioned two reasons :mrgreen: ) while I drank sometimes, but during weekends I'd been 'killing' myself in the drink during the nightlife.
But I stopped with that nightlife 'sport' some 5 years ago, it's not good for health nor I need that stupid practice. Today I totally enjoy in one beer/day or two glasses of red wine, but I drink it every 2-3 weeks, sometimes even 2-3 months that one bottle of beer or wine. Whiskeys and these drinks I don't like at all nor I consume them although I used to enjoy in 1-2 glasses at the age between 16-21. :)
Instead of alcohol, I prefer water and homemade juices made of my own apples, cherries and elderberry.

Regarding gambling... I have played Loto few times in my life, my father used to play it in the 90's, occasionally buying a ticket and fulfilling it(without success). During the 2000's he played Bingo, with a small success.
The real problem is when people become heavy addicts, when they spend all their money and spend their every single day and hours in the bet places, casinos and bars that have slots and those game devices where they leave their money. It becomes a purpose of life. :roll: Nobody normal and self-aware would do that. When I pass by the bet places and see people sitting inside of it, watching TXT and results, I feel so sad. No wonder why my country and society is in terrible condition.
Logic is very simple: When people would earn and profit from the bets, all these places wouldn't exist at all, i.e. they would have been shut down long time ago. The reality says that they live excellent from those naive people who think that they'll earn fast money. Some of them have success, but then comes the greed and the appetite cannot be ever seduced and they lose what they won along with their whole salary. Terrible... :roll:

Just not to mention drugs... That's a clear Satan's territory. I hate and despise them from the bottom of my soul.

It's very clear why all this mentioned is a mortal sin in Catholicism, i.e. haram in Islam. Sooner or later these stuff lead you into the slavery, darkness and in the end - safe death.
As one my local priest said once, we are all addicted of "something" in this life, but that "something" always must be something good, with a noble and good intentions, productive and helpful for the closest and the entire community, also for those sick and poor, those who are hopeless, who lost and blew up everything with the gamble, drugs, alcohol, sex, pornography, and bring them back into a light, in realitys and on the right path, standing still on both of their feet again, etc.
Indifference is also a sin. These days the latter along with arrogance is simply 'shinning' at its best and that's terrible. I always keep that in mind that my heart doesn't harden and becomes corrupt.
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Re: Happy Holidays!!!

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Sun May 28, 2017 9:50 am

You're exactly like me when it comes to drinking. :wink:
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