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Happy Holidays!!!

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Re: Happy Holidays!!!

Postby ramsej84 » Sat May 27, 2017 7:10 pm

Until 1960s Mass was in Latin then the Pope changed that

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U l-Kotra qamet f’daqqa – u għajtet: “Jien Maltija!
Miskin min ikasbarni, - miskin min jidħak bija!”
U l-Kotra għanniet f’daqqa – u semmgħet ma’ l-irjieħ
L-Innu ta’ Malta tagħna, – u l-leħen kien rebbieħ,
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Re: Happy Holidays!!!

Postby PunkCapitalist » Sat May 27, 2017 7:10 pm

I guess you're right, but it still makes no sense to my western mind. If you study a religious text it should be for the meaning, not the specific sounds/words. So reading a faithful translation and studying the cultural/meaning complexities through study should be preferable to "pronounce" a text you can't understand and still having to read a translation on the side.

(I know the Koran is thought to be the direct word of God, and because of that reading in any translation would be wrong, but (again, no offense intended) it doesn't make sense to me).

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Re: Happy Holidays!!!

Postby Dumbledore7 » Sat May 27, 2017 7:15 pm

Nah I get it, really no worries and no offence taken, the scientific part of me says you're right in saying that. But religion is not meant to make sense :wink:
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Re: Happy Holidays!!!

Postby ottackon » Sat May 27, 2017 7:23 pm

ramsej84 wrote:Until 1960s Mass was in Latin then the Pope changed that

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Well, I can tell you that since Latin was dropped from the French education system (in the 1960s as well), the general level in written and spoken French has considerably collapsed in France. Today, if you go to a French high school and read the essays of the students, you would be shocked.
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Re: Happy Holidays!!!

Postby ottackon » Sat May 27, 2017 7:28 pm

Dumbledore7 wrote:Nah I get it, really no worries and no offence taken, the scientific part of me says you're right in saying that. But religion is not meant to make sense :wink:

Well, Indonesia is the largest Muslim-majority country in the world, and in my opinion, Arabic should be taught alongside English.
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Re: Happy Holidays!!!

Postby Dumbledore7 » Sat May 27, 2017 7:31 pm

Yeah I agree, that would've been nice.
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Re: Happy Holidays!!!

Postby PunkCapitalist » Sat May 27, 2017 7:34 pm

ottackon wrote:
ramsej84 wrote:Until 1960s Mass was in Latin then the Pope changed that

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Well, I can tell you that since Latin was dropped from the French education system (in the 1960s as well), the general level in written and spoken French has considerably collapsed in France. Today, if you go to a French high school and read the essays of the students, you would be shocked.

That probably.has more.to do with a certain political ideology you like a lot... You know, the one which took over, Mao's book in hand, in the French May.

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Re: Happy Holidays!!!

Postby ottackon » Sat May 27, 2017 7:39 pm

PunkCapitalist wrote:
ottackon wrote:
ramsej84 wrote:Until 1960s Mass was in Latin then the Pope changed that

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Well, I can tell you that since Latin was dropped from the French education system (in the 1960s as well), the general level in written and spoken French has considerably collapsed in France. Today, if you go to a French high school and read the essays of the students, you would be shocked.

That probably.has more.to do with a certain political ideology you like a lot... You know, the one which took over, Mao's book in hand, in the French May.

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:?:
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Re: Happy Holidays!!!

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Sat May 27, 2017 9:09 pm

Thank you for your replies guys. Ramadan Kareem to you all!

ramsej84 wrote:Why has nobody translated it?
The Bible has been translated to all languages including Chinese and Arabic

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From what I've learned in translation, it's because Muslims believe that the Koran was dictated by Allah and therefore it should not be corrupted and changed by humans, as is the case in translation. So translations are done to help one understand, but the official document used in religious ceremonies remains the original.

As you said the Catholic Church kept the Latin version for centuries even after Latin died. It's a bit of a different case there because the Latin version was already a translation. There's a case for both situations really. On the one hand, sticking to Latin or Arabic when most people can't understand it is a bit of a power play. You have to rely on what people are telling you it says. In fact, that was one of Martin Luther's arguments regarding the Bible; the people should be able to read and understand it themselves rather than rely on anyone. On the other hand, translations can change a text very significantly. The classic example with regard to the Bible is that there's a Hebrew word which refers to either a woman past puberty who has not yet had a child, or a virgin (though I suppose the latter falls under the former category). As we know translators have gone for virgin but it's debated by some denominations of Christianity. I'm not sure what Islam's position is on this case.

Edit: one thing I find interesting about Muslims is that whatever language you are speaking, you always refer to God as Allah. It always sounded strange to me. That's probably because I speak Maltese and our word for God is Alla. You go into our Catholic churches and Alla is what you'll hear. It also has the plural "allat" to refer to the pagan gods so for me it's really just the word that refers to that kind of thing, rather than to a specific entity (the Muslim God).
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Re: Happy Holidays!!!

Postby ramsej84 » Sat May 27, 2017 9:27 pm

Cause our language is Semitic.
We refer to our lent as ir Randan... from Ramadan...

What do the Jews call God? Eli?

Re Latin I referred to it as in how Catholics used to celebrate Mass... not the Bible

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U l-Kotra qamet f’daqqa – u għajtet: “Jien Maltija!
Miskin min ikasbarni, - miskin min jidħak bija!”
U l-Kotra għanniet f’daqqa – u semmgħet ma’ l-irjieħ
L-Innu ta’ Malta tagħna, – u l-leħen kien rebbieħ,
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Re: Happy Holidays!!!

Postby ottackon » Sat May 27, 2017 9:28 pm

FCBayernMunchen wrote:
Edit: one thing I find interesting about Muslims is that whatever language you are speaking, you always refer to God as Allah. It always sounded strange to me. That's probably because I speak Maltese and our word for God is Alla. You go into our Catholic churches and Alla is what you'll hear. It also has the plural "allat" to refer to the pagan gods so for me it's really just the word that refers to that kind of thing, rather than to a specific entity (the Muslim God).

If we pronounce the words "Allah" in Arabic and "Elahh (pronounced as 'El-aw')" in Aramaic (Jesus and his disciples primarily spoke Aramaic), then we would hear almost the same exact word.
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Re: Happy Holidays!!!

Postby ottackon » Sat May 27, 2017 9:31 pm

ramsej84 wrote:Cause our language is Semitic.
We refer to our lent as ir Randan... from Ramadan...

What do the Jews call God? Eli?

Re Latin I referred to it as in how Catholics used to celebrate Mass... not the Bible

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I think Jews call God "YHWH", but I believe Judaism forbids the pronunciation of God’s name.
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Re: Happy Holidays!!!

Postby ramsej84 » Sat May 27, 2017 9:32 pm

ottackon wrote:
FCBayernMunchen wrote:
Edit: one thing I find interesting about Muslims is that whatever language you are speaking, you always refer to God as Allah. It always sounded strange to me. That's probably because I speak Maltese and our word for God is Alla. You go into our Catholic churches and Alla is what you'll hear. It also has the plural "allat" to refer to the pagan gods so for me it's really just the word that refers to that kind of thing, rather than to a specific entity (the Muslim God).

If we pronounce the words "Allah" in Arabic and "Elahh (pronounced as 'El-aw')" in Aramaic (Jesus and his disciples primarily spoke Aramaic), then we would hear almost the same exact word.

Exactly , first Christians spoke Aramaic(a defunct language) then to market the new Religion the most imp languages of the time were used (Latin and Greek) ...
The film by Mel Gibson , "the Passion of the Christ" was in Aramaic with English subtitles

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U l-Kotra qamet f’daqqa – u għajtet: “Jien Maltija!
Miskin min ikasbarni, - miskin min jidħak bija!”
U l-Kotra għanniet f’daqqa – u semmgħet ma’ l-irjieħ
L-Innu ta’ Malta tagħna, – u l-leħen kien rebbieħ,
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Re: Happy Holidays!!!

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Sat May 27, 2017 9:43 pm

I think Eli may mean "Father" but not sure.
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Re: Happy Holidays!!!

Postby PunkCapitalist » Sat May 27, 2017 9:49 pm

ramsej84 wrote:Cause our language is Semitic.
We refer to our lent as ir Randan... from Ramadan...

What do the Jews call God? Eli?

Re Latin I referred to it as in how Catholics used to celebrate Mass... not the Bible

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YHVE/Yahweh. Jews have their own set of weird customs regarding the use of the name of their god. For example, they wouldn't write "God" in English, instead they would write "G-d". I think that is somehow analogous to using "YHWH" instead of "Yahweh". Also, a paper in which the word "God" has been written, can never be destroyed (I believe they burry it).

Of course, this only applies to practicing Jews. I've met plenty who enjoy their pork ribs very well :'D.

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