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Happy Holidays!!!

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Re: Happy Holidays!!!

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Sat May 27, 2017 5:32 pm

ottackon wrote:Ramadan Kareem to all muslims of this forum.

Out of curiosity, what does this mean? I know you celebrate the end of Ramadan (Eid, right?)... is the beginning also celebrated? Don't mean to be insensitive, just want to understand better. :)
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Re: Happy Holidays!!!

Postby Dumbledore7 » Sat May 27, 2017 5:38 pm

FCBayernMunchen wrote:
ottackon wrote:Ramadan Kareem to all muslims of this forum.

Out of curiosity, what does this mean? I know you celebrate the end of Ramadan (Eid, right?)... is the beginning also celebrated? Don't mean to be insensitive, just want to understand better. :)

Eid is the first day of the month following Ramadan and in my culture it's a cause for big family celebration (not so much parade or anything public) just like Christmas. In Indonesia it would be a two-day public holiday, and often longer off days for school and work.

As for the beginning, Ramadan Kareem is just a greeting to wish you prosperity during your fasting (although I believe Kareem literally translates to "generous", let ottackon correct me on this one). There's no celebration that I know of.
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Re: Happy Holidays!!!

Postby ramsej84 » Sat May 27, 2017 5:44 pm

I wished you well in Maltese hoping that it is understood by all those in here who speak a Semitic language.

One curiosity. You in Indonesia and other adherents of the faith how do you study Arabic or the Koran is translated to your respective language?

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U l-Kotra qamet f’daqqa – u għajtet: “Jien Maltija!
Miskin min ikasbarni, - miskin min jidħak bija!”
U l-Kotra għanniet f’daqqa – u semmgħet ma’ l-irjieħ
L-Innu ta’ Malta tagħna, – u l-leħen kien rebbieħ,
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Re: Happy Holidays!!!

Postby ottackon » Sat May 27, 2017 5:49 pm

Roonzil wrote:
ottackon wrote:Ramadan Kareem to all muslims of this forum.


Can you say good luck for Ramadan? Bc it seems like a tough one with the long Summer days. Ramadan Kareem!


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It's tough but nothing insurmountable, the thing with Ramadan is that since the Islamic lunar calendar year is 10 to 11 days shorter than the solar year and contains no intercalation, Ramadan migrates throughout the four seasons.
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Re: Happy Holidays!!!

Postby ottackon » Sat May 27, 2017 5:54 pm

Dumbledore7 wrote:
FCBayernMunchen wrote:
ottackon wrote:Ramadan Kareem to all muslims of this forum.

Out of curiosity, what does this mean? I know you celebrate the end of Ramadan (Eid, right?)... is the beginning also celebrated? Don't mean to be insensitive, just want to understand better. :)

Eid is the first day of the month following Ramadan and in my culture it's a cause for big family celebration (not so much parade or anything public) just like Christmas. In Indonesia it would be a two-day public holiday, and often longer off days for school and work.

As for the beginning, Ramadan Kareem is just a greeting to wish you prosperity during your fasting (although I believe Kareem literally translates to "generous", let ottackon correct me on this one). There's no celebration that I know of.

Affirmative!
Ramadan Kareem means Generous Ramadan because it is a generous time, we get many blessings and we see all the things we are to be thankful for. We also give charity during Ramadan (and should all year long).
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Re: Happy Holidays!!!

Postby Dumbledore7 » Sat May 27, 2017 6:11 pm

ramsej84 wrote:I wished you well in Maltese hoping that it is understood by all those in here who speak a Semitic language.

One curiosity. You in Indonesia and other adherents of the faith how do you study Arabic or the Koran is translated to your respective language?

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Very good question and I think this is quite interesting, a unique case. Muslim kids who grow up in most muslim families are taught to read the Arabic Koran. Very much learning all the letters, how to read, how to write - that's all usually the default. This is an art in itself for us, the Koran is recited in Arabic, and I believe that is the case everywhere in the world. But we don't get taught the Arabic language, as in not the meaning of words, grammar and so on. So to understand the Koran we have the translation, to study the meanings and decipher.

In other words, I can write the Arabic perfectly, I can read it for you, I can listen and write out what I hear, but as a language I wouldn't be able to tell you what the hell any of the things mean. Well I know some words due to frequent reciting of the Koran and reading the translation but I (and most common muslims outside the Middle East and northern Africa) would have no fluency in the language.
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Re: Happy Holidays!!!

Postby PunkCapitalist » Sat May 27, 2017 6:14 pm

Dumbledore7 wrote:
ramsej84 wrote:I wished you well in Maltese hoping that it is understood by all those in here who speak a Semitic language.

One curiosity. You in Indonesia and other adherents of the faith how do you study Arabic or the Koran is translated to your respective language?

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Very good question and I think this is quite interesting, a unique case. Muslim kids who grow up in most muslim families are taught to read the Arabic Koran. Very much learning all the letters, how to read, how to write - that's all usually the default. This is an art in itself for us, the Koran is recited in Arabic, and I believe that is the case everywhere in the world. But we don't get taught the Arabic language, as in not the meaning of words, grammar and so on. So to understand the Koran we have the translation, to study the meanings and decipher.

In other words, I can write the Arabic perfectly, I can read it for you, I can listen and write out what I hear, but as a language I wouldn't be able to tell you what the hell any of the things mean. Well I know some words due to frequent reciting of the Koran and reading the translation but I (and most common muslims outside the Middle East and northern Africa) would have no fluency in the language.

What? So you essentially memorized the whole book without being able to tell what an specific phrase means?

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Re: Happy Holidays!!!

Postby Dumbledore7 » Sat May 27, 2017 6:22 pm

You'd have to be a very special person to memorise a whole damn book :P, but that's not exactly what I mean.

I can recite a lot of verses, and I know the decipher of the majority of the verses I frequently recite because I've read them before or put deliberate effort into memorising the meaning of the verses. Besides, it's kinda pointless if you learn to read it without trying to understand what it means.

What I meant was, if I am to list languages I am fluent in, I will not list Arabic. Because that's correct, I can't speak Arabic, and even the Arabic used in the Koran (which is universal, there are no multiple versions) is not the Arabic that would be used by the Arabians daily. I would recognise some words they write, but I don't understand grammar forms and the vocabulary learned by reading Koran would be very limited.

Think of it as trying to learn Japanese by just watching anime, but what you're learning is a Shakespearean form.
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Re: Happy Holidays!!!

Postby ottackon » Sat May 27, 2017 6:27 pm

To complement Dumbledore7's answer, one also has to note that every human language in the world has different and unique connotations, semantics and culturally-significant, historically-contextual meanings.

English may have only few synonyms for words unlike Arabic that is as far as I know, the richest language in the world in tems of vocabulary.

Even vague philosophical concepts like Mercy, Love, Compassion, has more words in the Arabic vocabulary to describe different types or bands in the spectrum of such words.

For e.g., we need two words to describe "Mutual Love" in English whereas Arabic needs only one "Mawaddah".

Ar-Rahman and Ar-Raheem are translated as All-Merciful / All-Compassionate / Most Beneficent / Most Benevolent but these English words do not suffice to convey the true meaning of these terms.

Ar-Rahman means the Mercy, Love, Compassion, Generosity that Allah has towards ALL of His creations, whereas Ar-Raheem is the more exclusive Mercy, Love, Compassion, Generosity that Allah gifts to a select few of His creations who are faithful to Him. It took the English language a whole sentence to describe the summarised meaning of these Attributes, but in Arabic, it needs only one.

That's why most non-arab muslims were fluent in Arabic in ancient times.
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Re: Happy Holidays!!!

Postby PunkCapitalist » Sat May 27, 2017 6:31 pm

Dumbledore7 wrote:You'd have to be a very special person to memorise a whole damn book :P, but that's not exactly what I mean.

I can recite a lot of verses, and I know the decipher of the majority of the verses I frequently recite because I've read them before or put deliberate effort into memorising the meaning of the verses. Besides, it's kinda pointless if you learn to read it without trying to understand what it means.

What I meant was, if I am to list languages I am fluent in, I will not list Arabic. Because that's correct, I can't speak Arabic, and even the Arabic used in the Koran (which is universal, there are no multiple versions) is not the Arabic that would be used by the Arabians daily. I would recognise some words they write, but I don't understand grammar forms and the vocabulary learned by reading Koran would be very limited.

Think of it as trying to learn Japanese by just watching anime, but what you're learning is a Shakespearean form.

Letting the Shakespearen English analogy aside, which I understand.

What you mean, then, is that you can pronounce the symbols on the paper but, with some exceptions, without knowing their meaning?

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Re: Happy Holidays!!!

Postby Dumbledore7 » Sat May 27, 2017 6:37 pm

Correct. I use translations and decipher as means of understanding the messages written in the Koran.
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Re: Happy Holidays!!!

Postby ramsej84 » Sat May 27, 2017 6:43 pm

Why has nobody translated it?
The Bible has been translated to all languages including Chinese and Arabic

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U l-Kotra qamet f’daqqa – u għajtet: “Jien Maltija!
Miskin min ikasbarni, - miskin min jidħak bija!”
U l-Kotra għanniet f’daqqa – u semmgħet ma’ l-irjieħ
L-Innu ta’ Malta tagħna, – u l-leħen kien rebbieħ,
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Re: Happy Holidays!!!

Postby PunkCapitalist » Sat May 27, 2017 6:44 pm

Seems kinda illogical to me (no offense). If you're going as far as that to study a book in it's original language, you might as well just learn the language itself. Seems like a lot of work.

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Re: Happy Holidays!!!

Postby Dumbledore7 » Sat May 27, 2017 6:57 pm

ramsej84 wrote:Why has nobody translated it?
The Bible has been translated to all languages including Chinese and Arabic

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It's translated, but it's recited exclusively in Arabic. Translation is done to understand the messages being delivered, while reciting the Koran in Arabic is an entire religious activity in itself.

PunkCapitalist wrote:Seems kinda illogical to me (no offense). If you're going as far as that to study a book in it's original language, you might as well just learn the language itself. Seems like a lot of work.

None taken, I'm well aware of how it sounds to those well outside the culture. But it's weird that you think of it that way, or maybe I made it sound more complicated that it is.

Being able to do what I do took about 2 years of weekly tuition, while learning any language takes years of full-time practice, so there was really no "might as well" scenario there. I mean, learning any language (in a country not speaking that language) through taking courses wouldn't necessarily enable you to read a complicated book would it?

Edit: Now that I think of it, the reverse wouldn't necessarily work either. Drop a person in Saudi Arabia, pick them up in 5 years and they might become as fluent in Arabic as you can get. That wouldn't necessarily enable them to understand the Koran - understand, not just translate word for word. When I used the Shakespearean analogy, it's really a few levels more complex.
Last edited by Dumbledore7 on Sat May 27, 2017 7:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Happy Holidays!!!

Postby ottackon » Sat May 27, 2017 7:04 pm

Well, to give an example, if you put a Portuguese/Italian/Spanish text in front of me, I would be able to read it fairly correctly without being able to know what it is exactly talking about.
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