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General Rants Thread

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Re: General Rants Thread

Postby IsiahRashad » Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:57 pm

MUTU wrote:Came back here to rant about paternity leave in Malta again. I just noticed it's not 2 days as I told you, but 1 day.

It's 126 days for women, 1 for men.


Oh man.That's tough.
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Re: General Rants Thread

Postby MaCk0y » Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:18 pm

MUTU wrote:Came back here to rant about paternity leave in Malta again. I just noticed it's not 2 days as I told you, but 1 day.

It's 126 days for women, 1 for men.
Better hope for sextuplets. You get a day for each child.
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Re: General Rants Thread

Postby MUTU » Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:27 pm

MaCk0y wrote:
MUTU wrote:Came back here to rant about paternity leave in Malta again. I just noticed it's not 2 days as I told you, but 1 day.

It's 126 days for women, 1 for men.
Better hope for sextuplets. You get a day for each child.


It doesn't work that way :)
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Re: General Rants Thread

Postby MaCk0y » Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:32 pm

MUTU wrote:
MaCk0y wrote:
MUTU wrote:Came back here to rant about paternity leave in Malta again. I just noticed it's not 2 days as I told you, but 1 day.

It's 126 days for women, 1 for men.
Better hope for sextuplets. You get a day for each child.


It doesn't work that way :)
On dier.gov.mt it says that 'The entitlement of birth leave is linked with the birth of a child and therefore in the case of a birth of twins, the entitlement is double.' I am assuming it applies to more than just twins.
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Re: General Rants Thread

Postby MUTU » Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:50 pm

MaCk0y wrote:On dier.gov.mt it says that 'The entitlement of birth leave is linked with the birth of a child and therefore in the case of a birth of twins, the entitlement is double.' I am assuming it applies to more than just twins.


Reading this I'm shocked: not by the double-for-twins which sounds idiotic to me, but to the fact that it says "on the occasion of the birth of a child to their wife". Basically, if you are not married, you are not eligible for birth leave, but if your wife is raped you get a whole day of leave.
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Re: General Rants Thread

Postby Roonzil » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:55 pm

MUTU wrote:
Roonzil wrote:What if your dad got ill, should I pay you significantly less bc you could get the same disease? Or if I think Southern Europeans are lazy, should I pay you less, bc you might be lazy too? Should we pay left handed people less bc they can be more clumsy and thus a health risk?

Southern Europeans ARE paid less. And if I was to go to work in, say, Sweden, I wouldn't expect to earn the same salary of a Swedish male either.


And you'd be totally fine with being paid less bc of your cultural background? Just so I don't misread your words. I'd assume you'd ask your employer to pay you the same as your Swedish colleague, bc you do the same job for the same amount of hours.

MUTU wrote:
Roonzil wrote:Don't know how it is in other countries, but pregnancy leave is paid by the government over here. Absolutely zero reason for anyone to pay equally skilled women any less than men.

Even if maternity leave is paid by the government in your country, maternity leave is a huge burden on any business. The business makes profit from the employees, i.e. they should bring the company more money than their salary, directly or indirectly, otherwise they would fire them. Therefore, from the company's perspective, government-paid maternity is equivalent to unpaid vacation leave of 3 months (or however long the maternity leave is in the region) which means that the company is not making the profits off the employee and the company has to deal with a long-term absence, and there's nothing much they can do about it. It's not like they can employ a replacement for 3 months, right?


That's exactly how it works. The government pays your employee for the weeks of maternity leave, and the business owner has that money available to hire a replacement. It's not rocket science, and happens here all the time. That's literally how maternity leave works in my country, and imo that's how it should work everywhere. Stop giving women (and business owners) the burden of a necessary evil.

MUTU wrote:
Roonzil wrote:I am baffled you think I should earn less than you purely based on my gender

I never said you should earn less purely based on gender. There's skills and roles first and foremost. It's not discrimination due to gender, it's discrimination through statistics. I invite you to check the average amount of hours that males work against the average amount of hours that females work, which roughly correspond to the salary gap. This difference in amount of hours comes mainly from maternity leave (which is heavily unbalanced in favour of women, in Malta it's a ratio of 63:1) and perhaps taking care of kids when they're sick etc (because they generally put more value on family than males). The 'discrimination', therefore, is a direct result of this imbalance. If men were granted as much paternity leave, then they should and probably would get equal salaries.


I literally said SAME HOURS, SAME WORK. Don't come at me with the 'you work less' bullshit. If you and me work the same job, work the same hours, and the same days, in the same country. Your salary should be the same as mine. I understand people get paid less if they work less. There's nothing wrong with that. No one asks for women to get paid equal for a 28 hour work week. :roll:
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Re: General Rants Thread

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:24 pm

MUTU wrote:If lawmakers gave equal rights to men, that is paternal leave equal to maternity leave, then salaries would be based solely on skills and performance.


In many countries (and I'm not sure but I think PL might have proposed it in Malta) maternity leave can be divided among the parents however they wish. So they don't both get 3 months (for example) but they can decide how much each takes.


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Re: General Rants Thread

Postby MUTU » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:35 pm

Roonzil wrote:
MUTU wrote:
Roonzil wrote:What if your dad got ill, should I pay you significantly less bc you could get the same disease? Or if I think Southern Europeans are lazy, should I pay you less, bc you might be lazy too? Should we pay left handed people less bc they can be more clumsy and thus a health risk?

Southern Europeans ARE paid less. And if I was to go to work in, say, Sweden, I wouldn't expect to earn the same salary of a Swedish male either.


And you'd be totally fine with being paid less bc of your cultural background? Just so I don't misread your words. I'd assume you'd ask your employer to pay you the same as your Swedish colleague, bc you do the same job for the same amount of hours.

Yes of course, working abroad I would expect lower salary than the locals. It's the reason why people employ foreigners usually, just so they can pay them less money.

Roonzil wrote:
MUTU wrote:
Roonzil wrote:Don't know how it is in other countries, but pregnancy leave is paid by the government over here. Absolutely zero reason for anyone to pay equally skilled women any less than men.

Even if maternity leave is paid by the government in your country, maternity leave is a huge burden on any business. The business makes profit from the employees, i.e. they should bring the company more money than their salary, directly or indirectly, otherwise they would fire them. Therefore, from the company's perspective, government-paid maternity is equivalent to unpaid vacation leave of 3 months (or however long the maternity leave is in the region) which means that the company is not making the profits off the employee and the company has to deal with a long-term absence, and there's nothing much they can do about it. It's not like they can employ a replacement for 3 months, right?


That's exactly how it works. The government pays your employee for the weeks of maternity leave, and the business owner has that money available to hire a replacement. It's not rocket science, and happens here all the time. That's literally how maternity leave works in my country, and imo that's how it should work everywhere. Stop giving women (and business owners) the burden of a necessary evil.

Hire a replacement? Never in my life have I seen or heard of a company in Malta that employed someone to cover up for someone else's maternity leave. Possibly because we don't have huge companies. Can you imagine owning a bar and having two barmaids on your payroll, and one of them leaves on maternity and four months later you end up with three barmaids just because you employed someone else quickly? Also, in professional jobs, in 3-4 months the employee is hardly productive anyway and would still be in learning mode.

Roonzil wrote:
MUTU wrote:
Roonzil wrote:I am baffled you think I should earn less than you purely based on my gender

I never said you should earn less purely based on gender. There's skills and roles first and foremost. It's not discrimination due to gender, it's discrimination through statistics. I invite you to check the average amount of hours that males work against the average amount of hours that females work, which roughly correspond to the salary gap. This difference in amount of hours comes mainly from maternity leave (which is heavily unbalanced in favour of women, in Malta it's a ratio of 63:1) and perhaps taking care of kids when they're sick etc (because they generally put more value on family than males). The 'discrimination', therefore, is a direct result of this imbalance. If men were granted as much paternity leave, then they should and probably would get equal salaries.


I literally said SAME HOURS, SAME WORK. Don't come at me with the 'you work less' bullshit. If you and me work the same job, work the same hours, and the same days, in the same country. Your salary should be the same as mine. I understand people get paid less if they work less. There's nothing wrong with that. No one asks for women to get paid equal for a 28 hour work week. :roll:

This is just conjecture which cannot be predicted. If you and I both get employed at the same company tomorrow, they will ASSUME that I will be less likely to take sick/maternity/parental leave and therefore would give me a higher salary if they believe we have the same skills and experience. However at the end of the day it could be possible that you would have worked the same or more hours than me. But you're talking about the past and salary doesn't work that way... no employer tells you to work a whole year and at the end of the year pays you depending on how much you worked... they tell you beforehand and then pay you on a monthly/weekly/four-weekly/fortnightly basis with a salary that was agreed upon beforehand. The amount that they will pay you depends on a lot of factors, one of which being their estimate of amount of work to be produced in future. So when you say "same hours", you're talking about the past. You can't predict that you'll work the same hours as a man, because statistically you're likely to work less.

MUTU wrote:If you think my reasons have zero credibility, then I invite you to come up with some reasons yourself as to why the salary gap exists... because either you believe it doesn't exist (which would question why we're even arguing here), or else you think hundreds of millions of employers are biased against women or something of the sort (sounds silly, no?), or else you can come up with justifiable reasons why the gap exists (which would question why you're angry it exists).


Still waiting for your answer.

It's really simple, there are only these three options:
1) You don't believe salary gap exists (which you're claiming exists)
2) You believe there are justifiable reasons why the gap exists (I put forward one which you are opting to dismiss)
3) You believe that hundreds of millions of employers have ganged up against women, a sort of cartel.
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Re: General Rants Thread

Postby MUTU » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:38 pm

FCBayernMunchen wrote:
MUTU wrote:If lawmakers gave equal rights to men, that is paternal leave equal to maternity leave, then salaries would be based solely on skills and performance.


In many countries (and I'm not sure but I think PL might have proposed it in Malta) maternity leave can be divided among the parents however they wish. So they don't both get 3 months (for example) but they can decide how much each takes.


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Yep but between what is made legally possible and what is likely to happen they're worlds apart.
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Re: General Rants Thread

Postby aterford » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:44 pm

.70 cents on the dollar is by and large a myth. This is a reductive take that only looks at the very most surface-level view and shouldn't be taken as a serious talking point. This statistic is simply the average difference in earnings between ALL men and women working full time. It doesn't take into account for differences in occupation, position, experience, education, job tenure/seniority, or hours worked per week. When all these factors are taken into account, it ends up working out to more like .96-.98 cents on the dollar. Now admittedly, there's a gap still there, but it's not nearly as bad as many would talk it up to be. In fact, depending on field, there's a growing number of occupations where women will actually make more on the dollar than men. I'm a male social worker. Off the top of my head, I can tell you that female social workers make about $1.08 for every $1.00 a male social worker makes.

Of the top-ten earning college majors, nine out of ten are majority men. Of the bottom-ten earning majors, nine out of ten are majority women.

Even when it is "same hours, same work" this is far too simplistic.

Person "A" has a graduate-level degree and one years' experience in their given field/position.
Person "B" has a postgraduate-level degree and five years' experience in the same field/position.
They both have the same responsibilities and both work 40 hours a week. Should they be paid the same? I think a reasonable person would say that the one with more experience and education should be earning more, no? This illustrates why simply looking at the job and hours worked is a poor barometer of pay equality/inequality.
In almost every case you see cited as an example of unequal pay, it's not a true like-for-like comparison. We often see cases where one claims a woman earns less than a man doing the same job, but this paints an incomplete picture. Oftentimes the woman in question doesn't have the same level of education (i am NOT saying the woman is not as smart - just that she hasn't completed as much schooling), doesn't have as much experience in the field, hasn't been at their job for as long, etc. There are many more factors than simply gender and hours/work that go into one's pay.

Don't get me wrong here. I try to be as egalitarian as possible. I certainly believe in equal rights to women. But I think the gender pay gap is a poor example and in many cases effectively a straw man. IMO, there are many other things that should be of more importance to women in regards to equal rights. We should pick our battles more efficiently. Pay inequality is vastly overstated and IMO women shouldn't put as much effort into fighting it as they do - because it's not nearly the problem that it's talked up to be. Save that energy and effort for more important things.

(Granted, these numbers are for the USA only, I can't speak as to how things are overseas)
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Re: General Rants Thread

Postby MUTU » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:56 pm

aterford wrote:I'm a male social worker. Off the top of my head, I can tell you that female social workers make about $1.08 for every $1.00 a male social worker makes.

Cool. My wife is a social worker too, but she works for the government and therefore she gets paid depending on grades, so she will get paid exactly as much as a male social worker with the same experience.

I like the rest of your post. I think women are right to fight for equal rights, just not in the Western world. In the west, their campaigns shifted the balance in their favour, in my opinion. The largest inequality gap in favour of women? Wars. How many men throughout the course of history and including the present age are forced to go to war against their will as opposed to women? To be forced to kill, watch your friends die and greatly risk being killed/injured yourself... it's not a nice thing, yet women were/are rarely forced into this.
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Re: General Rants Thread

Postby Roonzil » Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:00 pm

I'm beginning to think Malta's way of organizing society is so vastly different from what I'm used to that we'll never agree. Bc hiring an employee for 3 months to cover for a pregnant employee is like the most normal thing to do here. You give the 'cover employee' a 3 month contract. Simple. Easy. No extra money wasted for the business owner. Maternity leave simply is not a factor in deciding how much to pay a person, bc it is not an issue here. I wasn't aware that it was an issue elsewhere. Malta needs to fix that, for everyone's sake.

In reply to your 'grand conspiracy' question: LMAO, you think there isn't a bias against women in certain societies? And if there isn't, business owners will often choose money over personal wellfare, and women are an easy victim (see: your posts and justifications as to why women should be paid less based). You made my case for me. :coffee:

Aaaaaand in case you didn't believe there's a pay gap...check the BBC salary leak.



EDIT: the war argument: and who do you think decided to only take men into the army? It's another feminist issue: EQUALITY. Not women above men, it's the SAME rights and responsibilities for everyone.
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Re: General Rants Thread

Postby pyrasur » Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:00 pm

I agree that there are a few 'good old boy clubs' left. But it blows my mind that in the 21st century, anyone would hire a man if they could hire a woman to do the same job at a lower cost.

It's the deceit used attain equality leave me sour. Women can do my job equally as well as I can. I know it because the other day I fought my female instructor and she smoked me several times. So it makes no sense that in several workplaces women have a lesser physical fitness standard. The 70 cents to every dollar line is a complete joke, and every time the "movement" trots out that lie I further lose trust in their cause. Women used that in tennis to get the same prize money, but it's slightly disingenuous when they are playing tennis but it's not the same game as the men's game. Even if we look from a business perspective and not the sporting aspect, female players should be paid fairly for the viewership they attract. And on top of all this, to get paid the same in order get more vacation time with the family and do less work? And in some countries that's vacation funded by someone else's taxes?

As a society we are not and haven't been going for full equality. I want to fight for equality, and to see all people on a level and fair playing field. But when movements pick and choose aspects of equality they like and avoid the one's they don't, it detracts from the cause.
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Re: General Rants Thread

Postby Roonzil » Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:43 pm

I wouldn't say it's a vacation paid for by taxes. It's a building block for the future, paid for by taxes. Every society needs children, and the people who raise the children should get the means to do it successfully (this includes men, who in Sweden get 90 days as far as I know).

Like public schools are funded by the government, to create an educated new society, paternal leave is funded (at least in my country) to get healthy and well cared for children for the future.
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Re: General Rants Thread

Postby ramsej84 » Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:41 pm

America USA wrote:
Roonzil wrote:As long as I cannot hike alone, travel to certain countries alone, get equal pay for equal work, or get a certain job at all bc of my vagina, you boys need to sit the **** down!

Precisely. Feminism movement has served its purpose in the West and now it's becoming more and more about putting females on a pedestal. Meanwhile in countries like Saudi, Pakistan, Iraq, etc women have almost zero rights.

If feminists want to "travel to certain countries alone" then they need to spread their message to those parts of the World too! And good luck with that, unless you get stoned for blasphemy or some other stupid crime

And one final comment on that good ol rape analogy. Women (and Men) need to understand that there are and always will be bad people in this world looking to screw up someone's life. So as a vigilant and smart individual the best you must try to do is avoid such people. This means not going to a violent neighborhood in Detroit after sunset and driving your gf/sister/or any female you know, to her residence yourself instead of letting her all by herself in lonely streets at odd hours. That's asking for trouble and It's just plain old common sense to avoid those situations in the first place.

and one more thing, to stop frequent rapes, the smart option is not to import a large population of young men who come from regressive cultures and view women as property and somehow tend to lose control if they see a woman who's not covered from head to toe.
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