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General Chat Thread

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Re: General Chat Thread

Postby dambun » Sat Jul 09, 2011 6:38 pm

Look who's getting old!! :mrgreen: :lol: Happy birthday Element...
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Have a nice one bro....

Wish your understanding of goalkeeping improves as you grow... :wink: :P
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Re: Takashi Usami

Postby MrLinky » Sat Jul 09, 2011 7:13 pm

shileno wrote:but you can't say every south american is like Diego, Robinho or Neymar, divas are in every country, including Japan.


I wasn't saying that, and I absolutely agree with the essence of your post. There are exceptions to everything everywhere.

You can stretch it to other players too, ask what Inter fans think of Nagatomo or what Stuttgart fans think of Okazaki, who was a massive factor for them in avoiding relegation. Even scored against us.

shileno wrote:Also, there are 3 japanese against tons of great players like Gustavo, Vidal, Barrios, Grafite, Josue, Guerrero, Ramos and many more.


Guerrero? Really? The guy who hit a fan with a bottle and injured him in his face while walking back to the dressing-room? And Vidal who can't build a single understandable sentence in German even though he's been in Leverkusen for 4 years now? That's a factor too, the willingness to learn the language of the country you're playing in. You've got Hasebe who's speaking almost accent-free German, and he's been at Wolfsburg since 2008, I think.

I'm sure there are undisciplined and unfocused Japanese footballers out there just like there are South American ones. It’s just about putting things into perspective. You monitor a hundred Japanese players who moved to a European club and compare them to a hundred South American players who did the same thing. I say, while you're probably gonna get undisciplined players from both sides, you're likely to get more South American players who behaved improperly at their club at some point during their stint, lacked hard-work or teamplay than Japanese players. You might call it prejudice, I'll call it a legitimate claim based on what we've seen so far. I might be wrong, but I'm usually not.

shileno wrote:I don't know, the best players out there are south americans, and to be like that you need to work hard.


Of course hard work is a big part of it, but you also can't deny that these players are just blessed with more natural talent and football in these regions has a better and longer tradition. And again, I did not say ALL South American players are lazy and unprofessional, while ALL Japanese players are working animals. Just like I said above, putting things into perspective.

quaazi wrote:Usami was dropped from the NT because of being a lazy diva, and you keep justifying your belief in his work rate by claiming he's Japanese.


We'll see about that soon enough, I'm not justifying anything. If he is a "lazy diva", he'll fail here just like any other player would, belonging to any another nationality. But I'll get back to you on that one in a few months, and you can do the same.

quaazi wrote:Your ability to turn jokes into unrelated ad hominem attacks is absolutely astounding! Truly a phenomenal skill that will help you much in your life


If you weren't yet, let me have the pleasure of making you aware of the fact that at times on the Internet it's kind of difficult to notice what's meant to be ironic and what's not. Smileys help. And let that be my issue, what will help me in my life or not.

tflags wrote:Dude, if I knew where you are from, I wouldn't dare call the rest of your country mates, football players or not, less or more ethical than any person from any other country.


You are twisting and turning this, it's unbelievable. I was talking about footballers, Japanese at that, coming to Europe, statistically showing a more professional attitude at their workplace. When did I ever, even in the slightest, imply South American or Japanese people in general?

I acknowledge making such points is a delicate thing, because there's the tendency to immediately push you into the "oh, look there’s that prejudiced, generalizing guy" corner, but I stand behind my opinion and there's nothing incorrect about it.

However, it's good to know that the forum has such attentive caretakers, who react so preemptively to what they believe is an up-and-coming "national stereotype". Very commendable, indeed. I'd recommend you guys to be the sheriff's (MUTU) deputies here. Even give you an imaginary medal. That'd be fun, right. Very, very admirable.

Oh and by the way, still no counter-arguments. Just the usual pseudo-moral lesson I was expecting.

USBayernMunichFan wrote:Let's just hope Usami turns out to be a good - if not great - player. Who cares where he was born or what nationality he is


Yea, I think that's something we can all agree upon.
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Re: Takashi Usami

Postby quaazi » Sat Jul 09, 2011 7:30 pm

MrLinky wrote:
We'll see about that soon enough, I'm not justifying anything. If he is a "lazy diva", he'll fail here just like any other player would, belonging to any another nationality. But I'll get back to you on that one in a few months, and you can do the same.

Wow, talk about backtracking! Now you're telling me to shut up and do the thing I was totally for in the start - not make premature conclusions about a player. If only everything was this easy.

MrLinky wrote:If you weren't yet, let me have the pleasure of making you aware of the fact that at times on the Internet it's kind of difficult to notice what's meant to be ironic and what's not. Smileys help. And let that be my issue, what will help me in my life or not.

See, even if I was not joking, that would still have been an ad hominem attack and as such petty debating.
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Re: General Chat Thread

Postby raz25 » Sat Jul 09, 2011 7:42 pm

Happy birthday Element.
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Re: General Chat Thread

Postby uzi716 » Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:24 pm

Happy belated Birthday Ele
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Re: General Chat Thread

Postby KAHN » Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:20 am

Happy birthday Element
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Re: Takashi Usami

Postby shileno » Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:21 am

MrLinky wrote:You can stretch it to other players too, ask what Inter fans think of Nagatomo or what Stuttgart fans think of Okazaki, who was a massive factor for them in avoiding relegation. Even scored against us.


That kind of attitude is because they're new players, they need to earn everything. Japanese players are not everywhere, this is also why they work so hard, you can say the same from chilean or colombian players, most of them do great outside.

MrLinky wrote:Guerrero? Really? The guy who hit a fan with a bottle and injured him in his face while walking back to the dressing-room? And Vidal who can't build a single understandable sentence in German even though he's been in Leverkusen for 4 years now? That's a factor too, the willingness to learn the language of the country you're playing in. You've got Hasebe who's speaking almost accent-free German, and he's been at Wolfsburg since 2008, I think.


I'm not gonna judge a player for a single mistake or for his education. Guerrero is one of Peru leaders and best examples, along with Vargas, or at least after some scandals. About Vidal, why learn german when you have a translator to help you? It seems language is not an issue for him in the field, that or Heynckes speaks a very good spanish.

MrLinky wrote:Of course hard work is a big part of it, but you also can't deny that these players are just blessed with more natural talent and football in these regions has a better and longer tradition. And again, I did not say ALL South American players are lazy and unprofessional, while ALL Japanese players are working animals. Just like I said above, putting things into perspective.


I disagree. Many people think talent is everything, they say "I'll never be a football player because I suck at this". Nope, talent just make things faster and easier. It's the 10%, just like in every other job or hobbie, hard working people are the ones who reach top levels. South America have a lot of good player because they work, they play every day, it's their only hobbie in countries like Argentina or Brasil, it's their way to get a better life. It's amazing to see entire families playing in the backyard of a house at the low streets of Buenos Aires. In Japan is something completly different, their people are well educated, disciplined and have values, it's part of their culture.
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Re: General Chat Thread

Postby MrLinky » Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:30 pm

shileno wrote:That kind of attitude is because they're new players, they need to earn everything.


Maybe that is the reason. I'm not getting into a deep analysis of why that is so, but we've seen a clear, factual-based, incontestable, exceptionless trend of Japanese players in the Bundesliga and that’s why I said you generally don't have to be worried about it. Of course it can always happen that Usami or any other Japanese player might be the complete opposite of what we've witnessed of them so far. People aren't all the same just because they belong to the same nationality.

shileno wrote:I'm not gonna judge a player for a single mistake or for his education. Guerrero is one of Peru leaders and best examples, along with Vargas, or at least after some scandals. About Vidal, why learn german when you have a translator to help you? It seems language is not an issue for him in the field, that or Heynckes speaks a very good spanish.


"… or at least after some scandals". :mrgreen:

You're making up excuses. How about the players coming late to training camp then? You've got an excuse for that too? Players get provoked all the time, you don't hit a fan with a bottle in his face and hurt him just because he said something, the fact that the guy was a fan of Hamburg himself just makes it worse. And of course speaking the language is important. Or why do you think our club's directors always insist on hiring a German-speaking coach? Certain things are very difficult to translate and they can lose the real meaning of how it was meant in the process. That doesn't mean you can't do well for yourself if you don't speak the language, but it’s preferable. It makes fathoming things easier.

shileno wrote:I disagree. Many people think talent is everything


You only read what you want to read too, right? Please show me the part where I said talent is everything. I'd be very grateful. But at least you try to add a sense of constructiveness to the discussion, unlike other users who are out to condemn people for their legitimate opinion and attack them on a personal basis because of some sort of weird and unrelated feeling of "moral superiority". I give you credit for that.

quaazi wrote:Wow, talk about backtracking! Now you're telling me to shut up and do the thing I was totally for in the start - not make premature conclusions about a player. If only everything was this easy.


You're actually quite fun. Like a little kid, draw the world as you want to see it. Little tip: You don't read something just for the sake of reading it, preferably you also try to comprehend what you're reading. But I can't help you with your underdeveloped capabilities in that department.

quaazi wrote:See, even if I was not joking, that would still have been an ad hominem attack and as such petty debating.


So is this what you do when you're facing your inability to bring forward substantiated arguments in a discussion, open up other little battlefields? But it's clear to see that you didn't reply to the rest of the post and hence concede that you don't have much of a case.

Do you want me to help you? You just have to ask nicely. I can argument against myself.

And happy belated birthday to Element! You guys need to stop teasing him about our new goalie. As if the poor guy isn't going through enough these days by just having to see Neuer in a Bayern jersey.
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Re: General Chat Thread

Postby tflags » Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:23 pm

For every Diego there is a Toni. Your posts are long and tiresome. There are less controversial topics, more informative and constructive ones, but then again you have a choice to write what you feel and or think. I wish really there were topics that brought up a more fun discussion.

When you are ready to discuss stuff that we are can all contribute, you might find there are things people, never mind where they are from, share. You call South American football players less ethical than Japanese ones. And yet Brazilians have little in common with Argentinians. Huge difference in ancestry that differentiates even their language. As for every country in SA, same thing.

I invite you to share your opinions on footballers based on their own physical, mental or skillful attributes, not by the place they happened to be born.
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Re: General Chat Thread

Postby Aequitas1987 » Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:35 pm

To be fair to Mr.Linky, I personally did not feel in any way that what he stated is an outrageous insult towards SA culture, in reality its closer to the truth than people want to admit. The same applies for his theory on Japanese players, based on what we have seen so far, its true as well.

I find it quite annoying when people start taking a moral high ground over something so trivial, the typical moral high ground counter-argument that most people are making is that stereotyping is a no-no :lol: . The fact of the matter is we stereotype consistently in our real life whether it be buying a shirt that states "made in insert random asian country here" or every time you meet someone and create a streotype based on first impressions, positive or negative, its a stereotype based on the way they look/culture/race and act.

When we consistently stereotype everything in our lives why do people see the need to take the moral high ground when other people point out a stereotype that can be backed up pretty easily (statistically) and is not at all such a major insult towards SA culture/players.

The one valid point was that instead of generalizing SA players as one group maybe we should stereotype their mentality based on Argentinians or Brazilians (specifically), I agree with this but still maybe Chile or another country promotes better work ethic but there have been bad apples (work & attitude wise) from nearly all the major SA exporters.
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Re: General Chat Thread

Postby shileno » Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:41 pm

MrLinky wrote:You're making up excuses. How about the players coming late to training camp then? You've got an excuse for that too? Players get provoked all the time, you don't hit a fan with a bottle in his face and hurt him just because he said something, the fact that the guy was a fan of Hamburg himself just makes it worse. And of course speaking the language is important. Or why do you think our club's directors always insist on hiring a German-speaking coach? Certain things are very difficult to translate and they can lose the real meaning of how it was meant in the process. That doesn't mean you can't do well for yourself if you don't speak the language, but it’s preferable. It makes fathoming things easier.


Well yeah, there are players who play and act different with his club and NT. Guerrero might be one of them, I was only judging him by his recent matches. And c'mmon, I named Guerrero because he's not one of those diva players like Farfan or Diego, he's not an example neither but he's a an example of what I meant. You can see those mistakes in any player. As for the language thing, it's different when you have only 1 player who can't speak german (doesn't mean he can't understand a bit) and a coach, it's a whole different thing because the entire team would be a disaster.

MrLinky wrote:You only read what you want to read too, right? Please show me the part where I said talent is everything. I'd be very grateful. But at least you try to add a sense of constructiveness to the discussion, unlike other users who are out to condemn people for their legitimate opinion and attack them on a personal basis because of some sort of weird and unrelated feeling of "moral superiority". I give you credit for that.


Or at least you said talent makes the difference, right? Well yes, it does. That's why Messi is the best player of the world and no one can play like him but, it only makes things faster and easier. Not every south american player is that gifted like him.
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Re: General Chat Thread

Postby tflags » Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:36 pm

Aequitas1987 wrote:instead of generalizing SA players as one group maybe we should stereotype their mentality based on Argentinians or Brazilians (specifically), I agree with this


Really? Please do let me know where you are from. Lets see how you feel about been stereotyped, called less ethical, then morally superior, and finally 'it is no biggie.'

Please. If you want to throw the dart at ANY player, go right ahead. You will have sound arguments most probably. When you make ANY COUNTRY a brander of one kind of bad sportsmanship, it is insulting. Do try and understand that. NO STEREOTYPING please!
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Re: General Chat Thread

Postby quaazi » Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:09 pm

Tflags, just ignore him. Beating a dead horse, and beating it against a concrete wall, ain't worth the effort.
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Re: General Chat Thread

Postby Aequitas1987 » Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:03 pm

So to rephrase what Mr.Linky had stated is that :-

SAmerican players have a tendency to have a poor work ethic and have a higher inclination to causing drama/conflict as compared to Japanese players who are highly professional and dedicated/commitment. And this is noticeable when comparing the few Japanese exports to the many SAmerican exports. He also stated that there are obviously exceptions to all these stereotypes and Usami could very well be the first Japanese player with an ego / poor work ethic and similarly there are established SAmerican players with a great work ethic.

I don't understand in any form what he stated is such a big issue. Japanese professionalism extends itself outside the football pitch and is noticeable in the business environment everywhere, they are known to put their work-life ahead of family-life, it is the primary priority for them, their professionalism and courtesy is very much ingrained into them from a young age. It is no means an insult to be considered as having a lacking work ethic as compared to Japanese footballers who can easily be argued to have the best work ethic even when compared with European countries.

Edit* Also because of my upbringing I have had the privileged to have had experienced individuals from all across the world all throughout my education and have stayed all over the world as well. So my POV is not a narrow-minded POV, maybe stereotyping became more of a running joke within my circle of friends from the high school days (im 25 now) and we never considered it a big issue. It might just be a difference in perspective / life experience? Generational gap? That induces these varying reactions, in mine and Mr.Linky's case stereotyping such as this is not a big issue at all.
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Re: General Chat Thread

Postby MrLinky » Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:54 pm

tflags wrote:Your posts are long and tiresome.


You prefer 2-word meaningless posts, I've noticed. Quite honestly, I haven't seen you around before, just since I came back and I thought of you as a decent user with some funny contributions to the forum. That was until you started calling me prejudiced without any hesitation and without 1) having ever met me, 2) knowing a single thing about me. And what for? Cause I said that Japanese players in the Bundesliga have shown a very reliable work ethic. While now you're whining about the "oh so evil stereotyping world". Please. Don’t be ridiculous.

If it would be a stereotype at least, but it's not. It's factual-based, ask any of the clubs or the club's fans these guys have signed for, they will all tell you identical things.

tflags wrote:You call South American football players less ethical than Japanese ones.


Oh, God. You still don't get it. Remarkable. I was referring to Japanese players who have made their way to the Bundesliga, and have all shown a very professional and hard-working attitude, without a single exception, compared to South American players who have had their share of misconduct. When was I ever implying ALL South American players, or ALL Japanese players or calling one group generally less ethical than the other. I really don't see the point of making up things I didn't say. Once more Japanese players start arriving in Germany this trend might shift, I do not know that. It might even begin to shift with Usami, our own Japanese import. But what I do know is what I've seen so far and that's what I'm basing my opinion on. If you have more information and can look into the future, you're welcome to share your knowledge.

Aequitas1987 wrote:To be fair to Mr.Linky, I personally did not feel in any way that what he stated is an outrageous insult towards SA culture


Of course you didn't, because there's nothing outrageous about it. And no one is really arguing anything about it (shileno was having a regular debate with me on the actual point of the discussion), except for these 2 guys who seem to think they've been named some kind of morality guardians here.

shileno wrote:Well yeah, there are players who play and act different with his club and NT. Guerrero might be one of them, I was only judging him by his recent matches.


I understand where you wanted to go, you wanted to mention disciplined and professional South Americans who have done and still do a lot for their club. And I absolutely agree, there are plenty of them. Guerrero probably just wasn't the best of examples to bring up.

shileno wrote:Or at least you said talent makes the difference, right?


Let me get this straight once again: hard-work is a big part of it just as talent is. Otherwise everyone would start training their asses off 24/7 and become world-class players, but it’s not that simple. On the other hand, you might have all the talent in the world, but if you don't put in the right amount of work you need to, you're not going anywhere with your career.

tflags wrote:Please. If you want to throw the dart at ANY player, go right ahead. You will have sound arguments most probably. When you make ANY COUNTRY a brander of one kind of bad sportsmanship, it is insulting.


I don't mean no harm, but I honestly laughed out loud when I read that. So completely unrelated, out of place and out of context.
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