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Do you believe in God?

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Do you believe in God(s)?

Yes, I believe in the God of Abraham.
6
35%
Yes, I believe in a God or Gods other than the God of Abraham.
1
6%
Yes, but I am not a practising believer.
1
6%
I believe there is an unknown force or existence which is not a God (e.g. alternate realities).
1
6%
I don't know.
0
No votes
No, but I believe there is an afterlife.
0
No votes
No, but I believe in reincarnation.
0
No votes
No, I am an atheist.
5
29%
No, I am an agnostic.
3
18%
Other
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 17

Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby ramsej84 » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:20 pm

Because God wanted to become exactly like us flesh and bones but with no sin.
He came to the world to sacrifice himself for our redemption ... cause for us as I said earlier today God Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one... the Holy Trinity....

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Miskin min ikasbarni, - miskin min jidħak bija!”
U l-Kotra għanniet f’daqqa – u semmgħet ma’ l-irjieħ
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby PunkCapitalist » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:26 pm

ramsej84 wrote:Because God wanted to become exactly like us flesh and bones but with no sin.
He came to the world to sacrifice himself for our redemption ... cause for us as I said earlier today God Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one... the Holy Trinity....

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I know that. I was also raised Catholic, so I'm familiar with most of those lines of thought... But yet, you fail to address the essential question; why is that sacrifice neccesary to forgive this undetermined common sin?

If you told me "Well, god wanted to be like us, flesh and bone, and come to earth to lead us to be better people. Things just went wrong and we, out of our own free will, decided to kill him"; then, ok, that's coherent enough. But in what way does this even relate to the forgiveness of the original sin (btw, I also regard as "evil" that a supposedly benevolent omnipotent being would hold the descendants of Adam and Eve as guilty of a sin committed by their forefathers. Ok, I might be taking the story too literally, but then again, that's one of the essential Christian core beliefs, isn't it?).

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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby MUTU » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:35 pm

ramsej84 wrote:Because God wanted to become exactly like us flesh and bones but with no sin.
He came to the world to sacrifice himself for our redemption ... cause for us as I said earlier today God Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one... the Holy Trinity....

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This always fascinated me. Jesus is supposed to be the son of God, and the Holy Trinity suggests that he is therefore omnipotent, and could therefore fake his pain and suffering. How can we know for sure that Jesus did indeed suffer? God could have just sent out a body, a sort of robot, while staying in Heaven watching, relaxed.
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby PunkCapitalist » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:50 pm

BTW, this might be interesting to some... @dalv

https://www.quora.com/Does-quantum-phys ... ill-debate

Look at Ali McMilan's reply. Well thought out and, I believe, illuminating. Even if quantum physics disprobed determinism, that still doesn't prove free-will in any meaningful way.

Also, the distinction between micro-indetermination and macro-indetermination is very interesting. Even if quantum-level phenomena outcomes cannot be perfectly predicted, does that even tell us anything about macro-level predictability? I don't think so.

I, personally, believe in determinism and think science will eventually out-grow quantum physics, but I'm not a physicist so I wouldn't be willing to argue it (call it my very personal form of Faith, if you will).
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby ramsej84 » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:51 pm

He came to do that (to die) just out of Love He has for humankind.
Plus don't forget Jesus won over death by resurrection... without the latter our Rel would have been null...

And the old testament ... hmm I don't really look into it tbh...

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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby PunkCapitalist » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:55 pm

ramsej84 wrote:He came to do that (to die) just out of Love He has for humankind.
Plus don't forget Jesus won over death by resurrection... without the latter our Rel would have been null...

And the old testament ... hmm I don't really look into it tbh...

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You may find this ironic, but I enjoy quite a lot very religious art (Andrei Rublev, the Passion of Joan of Arc, stuff like that), and am utterly fascinated by some passages in the old testament (Ecclesiastes, specifically; beautiful methaphors and writting).
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:30 pm

PunkCapitalist wrote:You may find this ironic, but I enjoy quite a lot very religious art (Andrei Rublev, the Passion of Joan of Arc, stuff like that), and am utterly fascinated by some passages in the old testament (Ecclesiastes, specifically; beautiful methaphors and writting).

This is a football forum and most of our non-football discussions relate to politics and entertainment, so not many might know this about me, but I am a huge art geek (mainly literature and paintings) and also am extremely fascinated by cathedrals and monasteries in particular. I always make it a point to visit one when travelling. We have some wonderful religious art (all Christian in this part of the world) and religion has always had a huge influence on literature as well. I don't personally find it ironic to enjoy these things. Art is always a reflection of the human spirit and whether you believe in it or not, religion has been a primary shaping force in human history. An understanding of Christianity in particular is crucial to understand art, just as understanding Greek mythology is. I don't think anyone finds it ironic that people love art inspired by Greek mythology without believing in Zeus and co. Heck, it was even used in Christian paintings.

Regarding the Old Testament, I'm curious how many would agree with the minority view that the God of the Old Testament and the New Testament aren't actually the same God.
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby ramsej84 » Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:42 pm

The old testament is for Jews...

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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby nm462272 » Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:00 pm

ramsej84 wrote:The old testament is for Jews...


i always understood that both the old testament and new testament comprised the entirety of christian religion
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby ramsej84 » Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:05 pm

I know but IMO the New Testament is something less cryptic and relevant

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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby PunkCapitalist » Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:06 pm

ramsej84 wrote:The old testament is for Jews...

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Wow, Ramsej... Sorry, but you're a very disagreeable person...

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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby Dalv » Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:10 pm

PunkCapitalist wrote:BTW, this might be interesting to some... @dalv

https://www.quora.com/Does-quantum-phys ... ill-debate

Look at Ali McMilan's reply. Well thought out and, I believe, illuminating. Even if quantum physics disprobed determinism, that still doesn't prove free-will in any meaningful way.

Also, the distinction between micro-indetermination and macro-indetermination is very interesting. Even if quantum-level phenomena outcomes cannot be perfectly predicted, does that even tell us anything about macro-level predictability? I don't think so.

I, personally, believe in determinism and think science will eventually out-grow quantum physics, but I'm not a physicist so I wouldn't be willing to argue it (call it my very personal form of Faith, if you will).


Thanks, Punk, it was a good read although I would be curious in his opinion today when CERN made some important advancements in quantum physics (his reply is from 2011). I'm afraid it is growing pretty solid to be ignored. I'm also sure those physicists have a better idea than us, but it is known that general relativity and quantum physics aren't compatible due to gravity, but this will change sooner or later as they further research, study and tweak quantum.
Btw, I'm "cheering" for the good old general relativity as well hehe, the likes of me can understand it too to a wider degree and determinism makes sense in this, unfortunately science isn't about personal preferences or beliefs.
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby Dumbledore7 » Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:17 pm

PunkCapitalist wrote:Besides that, I also adhere to some form of determinism and, thus, can't relate to the concept of infinite punishment or even afterlife punishment. What I mean is; suppose a person is born a psychopath, that person in no way chose to be that way, he was either born with the wrong brain chemistry or raised under such extremely cruel circumstances that he end that way. How does eternal punishment even makes sense for flaws a person didn't choose?

All of that being said, I don't really care what others believe or not. My problem is when people want to codify their irrational (in the way -I think it was him- Dumbledore put it) beliefs into law. As long as religion and politics/law remain strictly separate, all is well. This becomes a problem in gay-rights issues. Ok, I'm willing to accept that a debate about wether abortion is acceptable can be grounded on non-religious ethical principles (killing a living human being is wrong for atheists too, so it becomes a question of wether it is or isn't a human life yet); but gay-marriage? Sorry there is no way you can argue for it's prohibition without shoving YOUR religion down my throat (ok, there are some ways, but those lead to extremely dangerous places).

I would like to read more from you @Dumbledore, btw.

This is the sort of thing I'm dying to discuss, not the ridiculing stuff that the less respectful members are trying to do.

The psychopath: Given that the law of nature, which I also call God's will, intend the person to be so, I would believe that the psychopath will be judged appropriately. That is to say, there is no true "standard". I'm not a psychopath and I believe I will be punished if I choose to do psychopathic things, because I have a capacity to determined the moral good and moral evil and I choose not to exercise it. I don't expect those who are truly born as such to be judged the way I would be. God isn't a ruler and religion isn't a set of rules. God is a giver and every being has a relationship with Him on a case-by-case basis.

A slightly different note: Without the poor, there are no means for us to show generosity. Without diseases, we're less likely to appreciate good health. These are the lines of thoughts of my interpretation of Islam. Of course I'm not going to be able to justify every moral and natural evil there is, but that is basically my thoughts on evil that I will try to keep manifest in every so-called "test" I'll face.

Laws: My knowledge on Christianity and the Bible is incredibly limited, so I won't be speaking for them. I think we've discussed this a bit a while ago - law and government, in its strict sense, does not exist in the Koran. An individual should accept and manifest the Koran's values, but it is not a guide on society. Therefore, I believe that sharia laws or those similarly based on "religion" is a wrong interpretation. On that, we agree completely. Iran, Saudi, much of the Middle East are **** up countries. If they postulate true Islamic values rather than trying to play God over other humans, they wouldn't be in shit.


Gays: This is gonna need a section in its own. See below. If I have a gay son, this is what I'll be telling him.

Again, from the perspective of my own religion. There is NOTHING on being gay in the Koran. Honestly I'm not even sure if being gay is prohibitied even in the Bible. Huge, histerical misinterpretation of this by "religious" people who are only doing what their parents and ancestors have been telling them as opposed to discovering religion on their own. Honestly, I find this irritating.

There are two premised "problems" with gays, according to those who perceive them as wrong. I will, for lack of better word, "counter" each of them at length.
#1 The fact that you're gay is a choice, and you made the wrong choice, therefore you're an abomination of God's will.
#2 They can't marry because marriage by definition is between a man and a woman (and that, on the strictest sense, is true and I acknowledge that as well).

Counterpoint #1
Beyond reasonable doubt, I believe that there are people who are born gay and it is not their fault and nor will God punish him for being gay. Conceptually the same as the psychopath case above. The one thing that is even implied to be categorically wrong in the Koran is anal sex and strictly that. More familiarly, this is the story of Sodom and how disasters eradicated them. It is therefore implied that anal sex causes God's wrath - even if it's straight. That, I'm afraid we'll have to take for granted for now.

Anyway, this is becomes a contextual issue in modern day, because it could be argued that anal sex is the only way gay people could achieve a sexual satisfaction equal to straight people through intercourse. Other than that, the fact that you're gay and you think about other men the way I think about women doesn't make you less worthy of a person. I'm afraid that gay Muslims would have to put up with not ever being able to do anal sex in their lives, the way I have to resist pork, alcohol, or being sexually involved with a woman when I'm not married to her. Indeed, a tougher life for them because I can have a level of sexual fulfillment that I can achieve that they can't. That's the difference for gays. However, God doesn't love them less.

Counterpoint #2
In Islam, marriage is nothing but a contract between a man and woman, stating that they can have exclusive sexual access to each other without being wrong in the eyes of God, but there is an obligation that at least the man has to be able to provide living to both of them - the man will commit a sin if he can't provide for his wife.

I think where this is heading is quite obvious. Our western, social marriage is pretty much mutually exclusive from the above definition, although it may or may not be entirely separate. Social marriage is a signing of papers and exchange of rings arranged by law. The perceived "sacredness" of marriage in our society is purely socially and morally derived. A gay couple can lawfully marry, but in terms of my religion it simply wouldn't get recognised in the eyes of God as the marriage defined above. I don't believe that it's a violation of any rules.

**** me that's a long post.
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby Dalv » Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:41 pm

ramsej84 wrote:Because God wanted to become exactly like us flesh and bones but with no sin.
He came to the world to sacrifice himself for our redemption...........

ramsej84 wrote:He came to do that (to die) just out of Love He has for humankind.
Plus don't forget Jesus won over death by resurrection... without the latter our Rel would have been null...
And the old testament ... hmm I don't really look into it tbh...

ramsej84 wrote:The old testament is for Jews...


Oh, my friend, you are a bit confused. Let me make some short quick use of the Bible for you without even using the Old Testament:




.
For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
[...]
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Jesus not only believes in the stories from the Old Testament but accepts its laws as well.


Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. 14 Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard him say it.

He, with "no sin", curses a fig tree which didn't have fruit.

Didn't our ancestor Abraham receive God's approval as a result of what he did when he offered his son Isaac as a sacrifice on the altar?

Not only he approves with the sacrifice order but also sees Abraham in the Heavens, Abraham which married his sister and acted as pimp for her prostitution, and who also lived before Jesus (=>no heaven)

He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me, scatters.

False dichotomy.

Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death

Says that children who curse parents should have been killed!

Do not assume that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn ‘A man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war

Instigates to war.

If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple.
Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Comes up as egomaniac and tells followers to hate their families.

But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.

Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying...
Ye fools and blind, for which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold?

Shows hypocrisy but saying not to call others fools, but does it himself.

Let the dead bury their own dead. You, however, go and proclaim the kingdom of God

Disrespectful with one of his disciples mourning over his deceased father, tells him to leave and not bury him

And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? No, you will be thrown down to hell!
[...]
Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

Severely threatens an entire city for not listening to his preaching.

Then the Pharisees and some of the scribes who had come from Jerusalem gathered around Jesus, and they saw some of His disciples eating with hands that were defiled—that is, unwashed.

Jesus disapproves washing hands before eating when questioned by cleaner people and says hands shouldn't be washed. (imagine if kids read this in the Bible and do what Jesus says lol)



There's a lot more in the New Testament showing what a "no sinner" this Jesus was. Well, ramsej, what sayeth you? :wink:

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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby ramsej84 » Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:12 pm

You interpret things to your liking... lol at the non washing of hands...
I wish I was able enough to answer what you have just posted...

Just quote us the beautiful things that Jesus preached to his followers ... He said to love ... even your biggest enemy... what else do you need to soften your heart?

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