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Do you believe in God?

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Do you believe in God(s)?

Yes, I believe in the God of Abraham.
6
35%
Yes, I believe in a God or Gods other than the God of Abraham.
1
6%
Yes, but I am not a practising believer.
1
6%
I believe there is an unknown force or existence which is not a God (e.g. alternate realities).
1
6%
I don't know.
0
No votes
No, but I believe there is an afterlife.
0
No votes
No, but I believe in reincarnation.
0
No votes
No, I am an atheist.
5
29%
No, I am an agnostic.
3
18%
Other
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 17

Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby nm462272 » Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:51 am

icewizard wrote:
nm462272 wrote:
icewizard wrote:God can do whatever he wants, he doesn't have to do it because you want him to...

God have created scientific rules to go buy, he can overpass them, but he doesn't have to.

Example: "can you get a whole camel through a needle head?"

Yes God is able to, but will he do it to please you? He doesn't have to...


this also works if you replace god with "my invisible friend"


Remember that "invisible" doesn't mean "inexistent", feelings are invisible, but they exist...

so yeah, God is invisible due to our "vision limitations"... and God is not from a material dimension... But God is seen from the heart and mind...


my invisible friend exists... let's call him Harambe.

YOU can't see Harambe, but I can. he's real, and if you don't believe that, you're going to hell.

there is nothing you can tell me to make me believe Harambe doesn't exist.
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby Dalv » Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:01 am

icewizard wrote:
nm462272 wrote:
icewizard wrote:God can do whatever he wants, he doesn't have to do it because you want him to...

God have created scientific rules to go buy, he can overpass them, but he doesn't have to.

Example: "can you get a whole camel through a needle head?"

Yes God is able to, but will he do it to please you? He doesn't have to...


this also works if you replace god with "my invisible friend"


Remember that "invisible" doesn't mean "inexistent", feelings are invisible, but they exist...

so yeah, God is invisible due to our "vision limitations"... and God is not from a material dimension... But God is seen from the heart and mind...

Dalv wrote:lol icewizard what makes you so convinced of that random gibberish? you take it for certain just like that, out of the blue, like you have seen it with your own eyes or something. please point me to a rational evidence of some sort.
How do you guys come up with these random rules? It reminds me of childhood: "hey brother why are you blocking my monopoly avenue with a dinosaur, that's not how you play? -- Oh it is how you play now because I say so!"
oh, and who created this god if you like logical thinking? :D


I don't come up with random rules, it's a very logical thinking using causality...

Suppose everything have a cause to exist. The common sense will not accept that there is an unlimited generation of causes (the cause of the cause of the cause ... etc.). This suite must have a beginning, which is called the First Cause, who itself does not need a cause, but exist by itself without the need of anything.

And if you say "who created the First Cause?" wanting to say that it itself was created, then it is NOT the First Cause.

After all it makes much more sense than to say that from the whole universe which is exponentially big, to the small atom which is exponentially small, have been created randomly out "nothing"...


Yes, physics is based on causality, but you got it the other way around. All processes took place from simple to complex (e.g. atoms to molecules), not vice-versa :wink:
So the correct way to say would be:
"from the small atom which is exponentially small, to the whole universe which is exponentially big, have been created randomly out "nothing" "

And yes, the Scientific Model predicted this "nothing" (which is not exactly nothing btw), however there was a thing missing and scientists built LHC at CERN for that: a particle that created mass. Say hello to the Higgs boson predicted to exist decades ago and validated in 2012. Oh, should we remind ourselves about the cosmic microwave background radiation as well? We can't just ignore evidence just like that so we can fantasize in metaphysics and play god of the gaps.

So yep, that Big Bang from a tiny singularity DOES make more sense for this universe. It's not a random made up thing to fill the gaps, it's what the laws of physics predict (another important thing, science always makes predictions) and "it's a very logical thinking".
So say hello to your tiny little god smaller than an atom if you wanna call that first cause god :)
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby Dumbledore7 » Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:58 am

I'm finding this really hard. There are the believers who try to pass off God for granted, spouting random unconventional wisdom (that can only be appreciated by people who have grown up in a religious setting) to "convince" non-believers as if it'd make the case for God any better. Then there are the non-believers who claim everything has to be 100% rational and logical. Other than the laws of physics and scientific postulates, hardly anything in our lives are, so let's get over ourselves. Anyway, see below.

I'll be writing this from a Muslim perspective. I'm a believer and a devout practitioner.

I was brought up in a Muslim family and I've also developed academically in the rational field of science. There are of course multiple periods where I have my doubts.

The concept of religion and God are completely irrational - beyond reason. For the purpose of what I'm about to write I might separate the meanings of "religion" and "God". The latter is a singularity that is believed to govern the order of the universe. MUTU talked about this quite well about this at length on the other thread, about the low probabilities of our current world taking shape to be so, but that's not what I'm on about here.

Beyond that, for me religion is a conceptual way of life, and I'll go as far as to say the existence of God isn't even central to the practice of religion. Now I think both sides will find this very strange but I'll try my best to explain this.

What drives devotion can be boiled down to what comes in the afterlife. It is a belief - if God exists, and we have tried our best to perceive (and practice) what's in the Koran to the best of our abilities, it would by definition mean that we'd have done all the right things, and avoid doing all the wrong things, that we'll end up rewarded. Karma, in other words. That is all there is at the surface of religious practice and don't let anybody tell you any different whether you're a believer or non-believers. In its essence, the Koran does not do substantially more than telling you to 1. do what’s right and not do what’s wrong; 2. Make yourself and others happy and not make other people unhappy, and for the most part even those judgments are left up to you.

So who makes me pray 5 times a day and fast for a month every year, amongst other things? This is the second layer of spirituality. At this point in my life and the way I am now, a given day in my would simply feel more positive if I do these things, I’m happier. Is this a placebo? What if God actually doesn’t exist? These are almost irrelevant at this point. This is how I find my release and it should hopefully manifest itself to whatever I do in life. I’ve achieved a few good things in life, but I didn’t achieve them because I’m a Muslim, I just achieved them while I’m being a Muslim, so that seems to have been working out quite well for me. It’s a really elaborate yoga.

If there isn’t an afterlife, or there is no God, but my life has been influenced by my reading and perception of the Koran, would it be for nothing? I think not, because I would still believe that this is one of the best ways I could possibly live my life at present. So I quote back:

Dumbledore7 wrote:Not gonna write a lengthy post yet, but: Religion is supposed to spiritually guide you through life, imbue you with positivity due to that faith and belief; it is NOT the meaning of life itself. Let's get that right.


My next lengthy post will be more about the existence of God itself and/or why I believe that Islam could be right from a rational and scientific point of view. What I will be going on about next time, for example, is the fact that the Big Bang is criptically referred to in the Koran. Of course the Koran isn't a science book but some of what was written about 1400 years ago have been found to be in line with conventional science, subject to the interpretation.
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:54 am

I agree with much of what you said Dumbledore. At the end of the day basing your life and values on things you have read and learned and experienced is what I and I'm sure most people do as well. You just choose to give more focus to a certain holy book, I can respect that. A strange but interesting perspective.


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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby Dumbledore7 » Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:12 am

Certainly, and I will try to elaborate on why I put the Koran on such a high regard (i.e. why it is that I chose to focus on that one book, and why I believe it's right) soon in my next long post.
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby icewizard » Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:31 am

nm462272 wrote:my invisible friend exists... let's call him Harambe.

YOU can't see Harambe, but I can. he's real, and if you don't believe that, you're going to hell.

there is nothing you can tell me to make me believe Harambe doesn't exist.

:mrgreen: =D> :lol: Good for you and Harambe...

Nobody is forcing for you to believe in God, and i don't think you're forcing me to believe in Harambe... Are you? :coffee:

Dalv wrote:Yes, physics is based on causality, but you got it the other way around. All processes took place from simple to complex (e.g. atoms to molecules), not vice-versa :wink:
So the correct way to say would be:
"from the small atom which is exponentially small, to the whole universe which is exponentially big, have been created randomly out "nothing" "

And yes, the Scientific Model predicted this "nothing" (which is not exactly nothing btw), however there was a thing missing and scientists built LHC at CERN for that: a particle that created mass. Say hello to the Higgs boson predicted to exist decades ago and validated in 2012. Oh, should we remind ourselves about the cosmic microwave background radiation as well? We can't just ignore evidence just like that so we can fantasize in metaphysics and play god of the gaps.

So yep, that Big Bang from a tiny singularity DOES make more sense for this universe. It's not a random made up thing to fill the gaps, it's what the laws of physics predict (another important thing, science always makes predictions) and "it's a very logical thinking".
So say hello to your tiny little god smaller than an atom if you wanna call that first cause god :)


Dalv, there are rules that cannot be broken, unless something extraordinary does so: which is called miracles, and they did and do happen.

As i said before, God is not from a material world, so there is no "smaller" or "bigger"... If you want to talk about the Big Bang theory, i'd say God created the spark that created the Big Bang... He is the first cause...

I accept science, religious people do, but Science is evolutive and especially corrective as there are new discoveries, and new theories that goes with it to correct older flawed ones (that people at the time thought correct).

I find it extremely arrogant from some humans to claim knowing more while they haven't even discovered the planet we live in (or humans pretending to know more than the supposedly omniscient entity...).

Our knowledge is limited and we will NEVER be able to explain everything, the thing is that some people admit it and others don't.
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby ramsej84 » Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:46 am

We believe that God has no begenning ... it is a mystery...
Like we Catholics believe that God Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the same... three entities in One...
Islam does not accept that and treat Jesus as another prophet sent by God who preceded Mohammed peace be upon both...
Islam also hails Mary (Mariam) the woman who gave birth to Jesus.
For us the Holy Mary is like a bridge to God and is venerated with Love by all Catholics... (not all Christians)

The other monotheistic religion ridicule both Jesus and Mary...
But that's their choice...

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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby MUTU » Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:43 am

I gotta admit, Harambe has a cool sounding name...
Is it pronounced like the h of hat or the h of James Rodriguez?
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby nm462272 » Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:30 pm

MUTU wrote:I gotta admit, Harambe has a cool sounding name...
Is it pronounced like the h of hat or the h of James Rodriguez?


it's a hard "h", and don't you EVER get that wrong!!

8)
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby Dalv » Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:47 pm

Oh guys that makes no sense at all, thats childish, what makes you believe that random gibberish? Give me one evidence. Oh this is talking in circles :lol:

And thats how science is, a process, there's no waving the magic wand for the solution. Of course you accept science, you take it each time you take a pill or go to doctor cause you're sick, nope, your prayers dont work do they?
What I find arrogant is God of the gaps, gaps which get smaller and smaller. But whats even more arrogant and irrational is believing in an abrahamic god with so much evil in the world. Even if it existed I wouldnt worship it, I would ask "how dare you not intervene monster?"
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby Dumbledore7 » Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:52 pm

Dalv wrote:Oh guys that makes no sense at all, thats childish, what makes you believe that random gibberish? Give me one evidence. Oh this is talking in circles :lol:

And thats how science is, a process, there's no waving the magic wand for the solution. Of course you accept science, you take it each time you take a pill or go to doctor cause you're sick, nope, your prayers dont work do they?
What I find arrogant is God of the gaps, gaps which get smaller and smaller. But whats even more arrogant and irrational is believing in an abrahamic god with so much evil in the world. Even if it existed I wouldnt worship it, I would ask "how dare you not intervene monster?"

There is no evidence for God's existence and religious practice is completely irrational. I think that's something that's been well-established here and both sides actually agree on. I genuinely don't understand why you talk in circles and keep repeating the same arguments about logic and rationality, trying to make a mockery of those who are already aware of the irrationality of it all. I think the focus of the discussion should be along the lines of "so what now that you believe or not believe in the irrational concept of God".
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby Hardrade » Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:00 pm

God loves violence, and we love it too. After all, didn't Jesus, like, sacrifice himself? Many religions lay their foundations on the act of violence, for it is the basis of human/animal existence, the innermost of all.

Indifferently evil god is a naive concept.
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:07 pm

Hardrade wrote:God loves violence, and we love it too. After all, didn't Jesus, like, sacrifice himself? Many religions lay their foundations on the act of violence, for it is the basis of human/animal existence, the innermost of all.

Indifferently evil god is a naive concept.


The problem I find with the Abrahamic God is that these religions believe in a God who is all-powerful and all-good and yet there's evil all around us, natural disasters, violence in the Old Testament... The idea that all of this is because of us and our free will is very unsatisfactory in my opinion.

At least the Classical religions of Europe didn't shy away from the idea that the gods are flawed.


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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby DerKaiser » Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:11 pm

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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby Hardrade » Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:16 pm

Well yes, technically everything bad is our fault, we are all one great communion where actions of a part influences the rest, mistakes of predecessors obligate children etc. Yet on the day after death we are individually held responsible.

It seems that we only have right of individuality in suffering, therefore our god is a violent one. That's my view at least. Quite an odd idea of freedom, though, when you take it all in perspective.
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