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Do you believe in God?

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Do you believe in God(s)?

Yes, I believe in the God of Abraham.
6
35%
Yes, I believe in a God or Gods other than the God of Abraham.
1
6%
Yes, but I am not a practising believer.
1
6%
I believe there is an unknown force or existence which is not a God (e.g. alternate realities).
1
6%
I don't know.
0
No votes
No, but I believe there is an afterlife.
0
No votes
No, but I believe in reincarnation.
0
No votes
No, I am an atheist.
5
29%
No, I am an agnostic.
3
18%
Other
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 17

Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby Dalv » Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:01 am

Satan? oh dear :lol:

darling, ok I will remove it myself if it insults you that badly

edit: image removed, should I remove poor ol' Epicurus as well? :)
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby icewizard » Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:08 am

Dalv wrote:And I proved you just before why you were incorrect because it's from simple to complex, not the other way around, but either you just skip what I write or you are incapable of understanding. At least that was the only argument you tried to back with some sort of evidence/reason/logic, as opposed to random weird arguments from your personal inner conviction like: This world is a temporal world, and the afterlife is the real life or There is no full free-will, and there is no full predestination, it's kind of like the middle ground between those two..


Even if we consider from simple to complex, this is from the material point of view, and i said before that God is not in the material dimension, even though he have total control on it.

In the end, even the simple have a cause, and the simple became complex just because of the set of rules whether they are physical, chemical or biological, which are material laws that God put out: like 1+1 = 2. Unless you say that those chemical formulas just randomly popped out of nothing!

Dalv wrote:The abrahamic god was supposed to be omnipotent, so a "test" is useless because it could already know the results. That vision shows that not only the abrahamic god is malevolent, but also not omnipotent. Flaws like these go way back to Epicurus.


Just a technicality but correct word is "omniscient" in this case which means all-knowing ("omnipotent" meaning all-able).

Epicurus clearly isn't talking about an abrahamic god... As i explained before, God allows evil and good to happen, to test the people's faith. He could have made everybody infallible, but why the need to judge them in the end if you make them infallible? In the end God is so merciful that even those who deny his existence are allowed to live. But everything will be judged in the end on the day of judgement.

And yes, God knows the results, that doesn't mean that we don't have to be tested. God knows the choices each and every human has, and he knows the consequences of each and everyone of these choices, and he knows which choices each and every human will take. We have to be tested on our choices or else we can account God on why we didn't have choices, unless such case is a consequence of our previous choices.

As an analogy, it's like a teacher who knows his students perfectly. By exam time, the teacher knowing how each student will answer, knows the result, but it doesn't mean that the student himself doesn't take the exam, which would be unfair and be accountable to the teacher. But that teacher will know that such student succeeds, and such other fails.

Dalv wrote:Also please answer me this regarding the "test": How is an infant dying at birth tested? Oh right, it was established this god is malevolent and not omnipotent.


Once again, you consider this world as a finality, while it is just a mean. The dying infant is not being tested, but he is a test for the parents and family in this example. Understood?

Dalv wrote:So believing in this god is what keeps you from going on a killing spree in the streets?


Actually it's one of the reasons, other reasons may involve that God created humans with the feeling of compassion, which made us hate what is hateful (like killing each other) and love what is lovable (like helping each other).

Dalv wrote:Well I'm not saying I have proof that something doesn't exist, that's not how it works. We have already talked about the burden of proof.
What I'm saying is that, given the facts, such an existence is extremely improbable.


You're just saying that everything that we have today came out of nothing, which makes no sense at all! But you are entitled to your opinion, as flawed as it can be.
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby PunkCapitalist » Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:04 am

ramsej84 wrote:
Dalv wrote:Yeah sure, Charlie Hebdo.

That (single) image brings a valid point, if you can't refute it doesn't make it "unbelievable abuse".


C.H is run by Satan ... if I feel offended it should be removed....
The same as if I put some nasty pics of The islamic prophet...

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There we go. I don't agree with Dalv's tone, which is indeed purposely disrespectful. But the moment you want to ban stuff because it offends, you crossed the line... ESPECIALLY you Ramsej, who regularly spouts racist prejudice against Jews and also mean comments against gays,not to mention immigrants, etc. So you think you can go around offending everybody but YOUR stuff is sacred and beyond reach??? Wtf is that?

Imagine if someone Jewish came around and saw Ramsej's continuous anti-Semitic posts? The general prejudice of Bayern=Germany=Nazi would forever be perpetuated.

Sigh...

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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby Dumbledore7 » Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:41 am

@PunkCapitalist BTW I'd quite like to know what you reckon about my response to your post two pages ago :)
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby #12 » Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:15 am

PunkCapitalist wrote:
ramsej84 wrote:
Dalv wrote:Yeah sure, Charlie Hebdo.

That (single) image brings a valid point, if you can't refute it doesn't make it "unbelievable abuse".


C.H is run by Satan ... if I feel offended it should be removed....
The same as if I put some nasty pics of The islamic prophet...

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There we go. I don't agree with Dalv's tone, which is indeed purposely disrespectful. But the moment you want to ban stuff because it offends, you crossed the line... ESPECIALLY you Ramsej, who regularly spouts racist prejudice against Jews and also mean comments against gays,not to mention immigrants, etc. So you think you can go around offending everybody but YOUR stuff is sacred and beyond reach??? Wtf is that?

Imagine if someone Jewish came around and saw Ramsej's continuous anti-Semitic posts? The general prejudice of Bayern=Germany=Nazi would forever be perpetuated.

Sigh...

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Don't you get it? Only right wingersare allowed to be hypocritical... Geez
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby ramsej84 » Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:00 am

When you have no more arguments to do attack me...
OK... anti semitic... why? because I posted tweets showing how israel police treat the Palestinian ppl in their own homes?
Against migrants?... ok I don't think that I have ever wished them death ... I have always sustained my arguments with solutions.... and economic migrants (real illegal) are not to be confused with refugees....
Against gays? I have nothing against the act itself... but against their agenda and extremist lobbying... I have to gay friends and I have always told them this... the only thing that I don't agree on is the adoption and to call a gay union as marriage.
For the record one of them is also against adoptions ...

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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby DerKaiser » Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:44 pm

Statistics are like miniskirts . What they reveal is tantalizing, but what they hide is crucial.
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby nm462272 » Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:03 pm

@DerKaiser... love that show - the 1st season was amazing
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby Hardrade » Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:39 pm

Lol my words fell to deaf ears... I almost feel godly now.

Come on guys you can't really argue irrational with rational and expect any kind of resolution, in any sense... It's like someone telling you he was dreaming about an unicorn, and you confront him with it on basis that unicorns do not exist therefore he could not, should not be dreaming about them. In all your determination to make a solid, factual, rational case, you end up with an absurd argument.
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby #12 » Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:00 pm

ramsej84 wrote:When you have no more arguments to do attack me...
OK... anti semitic... why? because I posted tweets showing how israel police treat the Palestinian ppl in their own homes?
Against migrants?... ok I don't think that I have ever wished them death ... I have always sustained my arguments with solutions.... and economic migrants (real illegal) are not to be confused with refugees....
Against gays? I have nothing against the act itself... but against their agenda and extremist lobbying... I have to gay friends and I have always told them this... the only thing that I don't agree on is the adoption and to call a gay union as marriage.
For the record one of them is also against adoptions ...

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Please buddy, the number of actual arguments I've read from you regarding these issues barely makes a full hand
So don't drop these lines - plus, no one attacked you...
Your antisemitic tendencies are blatantly obvious when you make them responsible for basically everything bad that ever happened in the Milky Way
Your "solutions" are mostly improbable though, to say the least... Plus pretty mich speculative... Most "economic migrants" won't stay long term anyway... And your definition is at least debatable
I do agree however that politics still has a lot of catching up to do here...
And denying them adoption is anti-gay -whichever way you wanna put it...
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby PunkCapitalist » Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:33 am

Dumbledore7 wrote:
PunkCapitalist wrote:Besides that, I also adhere to some form of determinism and, thus, can't relate to the concept of infinite punishment or even afterlife punishment. What I mean is; suppose a person is born a psychopath, that person in no way chose to be that way, he was either born with the wrong brain chemistry or raised under such extremely cruel circumstances that he end that way. How does eternal punishment even makes sense for flaws a person didn't choose?

All of that being said, I don't really care what others believe or not. My problem is when people want to codify their irrational (in the way -I think it was him- Dumbledore put it) beliefs into law. As long as religion and politics/law remain strictly separate, all is well. This becomes a problem in gay-rights issues. Ok, I'm willing to accept that a debate about wether abortion is acceptable can be grounded on non-religious ethical principles (killing a living human being is wrong for atheists too, so it becomes a question of wether it is or isn't a human life yet); but gay-marriage? Sorry there is no way you can argue for it's prohibition without shoving YOUR religion down my throat (ok, there are some ways, but those lead to extremely dangerous places).

I would like to read more from you @Dumbledore, btw.

This is the sort of thing I'm dying to discuss, not the ridiculing stuff that the less respectful members are trying to do.

The psychopath: Given that the law of nature, which I also call God's will, intend the person to be so, I would believe that the psychopath will be judged appropriately. That is to say, there is no true "standard". I'm not a psychopath and I believe I will be punished if I choose to do psychopathic things, because I have a capacity to determined the moral good and moral evil and I choose not to exercise it. I don't expect those who are truly born as such to be judged the way I would be. God isn't a ruler and religion isn't a set of rules. God is a giver and every being has a relationship with Him on a case-by-case basis.

A slightly different note: Without the poor, there are no means for us to show generosity. Without diseases, we're less likely to appreciate good health. These are the lines of thoughts of my interpretation of Islam. Of course I'm not going to be able to justify every moral and natural evil there is, but that is basically my thoughts on evil that I will try to keep manifest in every so-called "test" I'll face.

Laws: My knowledge on Christianity and the Bible is incredibly limited, so I won't be speaking for them. I think we've discussed this a bit a while ago - law and government, in its strict sense, does not exist in the Koran. An individual should accept and manifest the Koran's values, but it is not a guide on society. Therefore, I believe that sharia laws or those similarly based on "religion" is a wrong interpretation. On that, we agree completely. Iran, Saudi, much of the Middle East are **** up countries. If they postulate true Islamic values rather than trying to play God over other humans, they wouldn't be in shit.


Gays: This is gonna need a section in its own. See below. If I have a gay son, this is what I'll be telling him.

Again, from the perspective of my own religion. There is NOTHING on being gay in the Koran. Honestly I'm not even sure if being gay is prohibitied even in the Bible. Huge, histerical misinterpretation of this by "religious" people who are only doing what their parents and ancestors have been telling them as opposed to discovering religion on their own. Honestly, I find this irritating.

There are two premised "problems" with gays, according to those who perceive them as wrong. I will, for lack of better word, "counter" each of them at length.
#1 The fact that you're gay is a choice, and you made the wrong choice, therefore you're an abomination of God's will.
#2 They can't marry because marriage by definition is between a man and a woman (and that, on the strictest sense, is true and I acknowledge that as well).

Counterpoint #1
Beyond reasonable doubt, I believe that there are people who are born gay and it is not their fault and nor will God punish him for being gay. Conceptually the same as the psychopath case above. The one thing that is even implied to be categorically wrong in the Koran is anal sex and strictly that. More familiarly, this is the story of Sodom and how disasters eradicated them. It is therefore implied that anal sex causes God's wrath - even if it's straight. That, I'm afraid we'll have to take for granted for now.

Anyway, this is becomes a contextual issue in modern day, because it could be argued that anal sex is the only way gay people could achieve a sexual satisfaction equal to straight people through intercourse. Other than that, the fact that you're gay and you think about other men the way I think about women doesn't make you less worthy of a person. I'm afraid that gay Muslims would have to put up with not ever being able to do anal sex in their lives, the way I have to resist pork, alcohol, or being sexually involved with a woman when I'm not married to her. Indeed, a tougher life for them because I can have a level of sexual fulfillment that I can achieve that they can't. That's the difference for gays. However, God doesn't love them less.

Counterpoint #2
In Islam, marriage is nothing but a contract between a man and woman, stating that they can have exclusive sexual access to each other without being wrong in the eyes of God, but there is an obligation that at least the man has to be able to provide living to both of them - the man will commit a sin if he can't provide for his wife.

I think where this is heading is quite obvious. Our western, social marriage is pretty much mutually exclusive from the above definition, although it may or may not be entirely separate. Social marriage is a signing of papers and exchange of rings arranged by law. The perceived "sacredness" of marriage in our society is purely socially and morally derived. A gay couple can lawfully marry, but in terms of my religion it simply wouldn't get recognised in the eyes of God as the marriage defined above. I don't believe that it's a violation of any rules.

**** me that's a long post.
You -tangentially- raised a point which I find very interesting. One of the many reasons I've never been a fan of religion is arbitrariness. Rules that make no rational sense don't compute well with me (I nonetheless, understand them under your "yoga" metaphor). Modern Catholicism is very un-formalistic; I think, in general, Catholicism has less formalistic rules than both Islam and Judaism (at least as far as my understanding of those religions goes). What I mean is stuff like the ban on pork or Halal food; there is no rational justification for those rules (there might have been at some point though). The way I see it, Catholicism has shedded most of these; modern Catholics interpret their religion as more about acting and thinking like a Christian, and not so much about following specific rules. I doubt many Christians actually even attend Mass once a week, but they don't believe (and I don't think a priest would disagree) they think of themselves as bad Christians as long as they feel and act in a way they think is appropriate for a Christian (ie; Love your neighbor, be forgiving, honor god, etc, etc)(there are some huge hypocrecies in there, though.......). On the other side, I see that both Muslims and Jews give a much bigger importance to formal rituals (pork, halal, praying X times a day and looking to Mecca's direction, etc). It an interesting comparative observation, I think.

This also extends to your discussion of homosexuality. From my POV (which is somewhat influenced by the modern Catholic interpretation of religion), it doesn't make sense that you would consider it ok for a man to live and (romantically) love another man unless they engage in actual anal sex; it is a very formalistic/ritualistic perspective. If we compare to how the law works; it is adhering to the letter, but not the spirit of the scripture (Hope that makes sense).

Your perspective on why you can't appreciate good things without their counterparts is also interesting. Nonetheless, I still think an omnipotent god who makes a child sick, and causes him suffering, is innately cruel.

(Bare with my limited knowledge about Islam, this part is something I would like to learn about) Then there is your comment about the separation of law/government and religion in Islam. I found this part specially intriguing. It is my understanding that Mohammed was, besides a religious leader, also a military and political one. This is something I find disagreeable about Islam. I always thought that Islam is dangerous (more dangerous than other established religions) precisely because of this fusion of law and religion. (maybe my interpretation is wrong and you can clarify). Doesn't Islam prescribe some rights and duties to non-Muslims, btw (that would qualify as a fusion of law and religion)? Your statement that government and religion are separated in Islam runs counter to everything I've always thought I know about your religion.

It's nice to talk to a respectful and thoughtful Muslim like yourself, btw. Wish more religious people were like you, and less fanatical and incapable of a reasonable exchange of ideas. Also, sorry for taking so long in replying ;)

PD; I can't believe Ramsej claims not to be an antisemite #-| He literally blamed "most" world wars on the Jews a few days ago.

Also, excuse Dalv's penchant for offending. I have to admit I was like that too a few years ago, but I guess I outgrew it.

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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby MUTU » Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:42 pm

Dumbledore7 wrote:Seriously though why did Jesus get pissed off at a tree and why is it in the Bible?

He didn't. Dalv is making the mistake of taking excerpts from the Bible without understanding the context and reading it all literally. The "fig tree" is often used symbolically in the Bible to refer to Israel.

In fact, Dalv is a fanatic anti-Bible who is ignorant to the full understanding. Let's not forget that the Bible has withstood the test of time for millennia; a Johnny-come-lately is not going to change anything.

If you want to read about the fig tree cursing, go to https://www.gotquestions.org/curse-fig-tree.html
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby nm462272 » Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:10 pm

MUTU wrote:
Dumbledore7 wrote:Seriously though why did Jesus get pissed off at a tree and why is it in the Bible?

He didn't. Dalv is making the mistake of taking excerpts from the Bible without understanding the context and reading it all literally. The "fig tree" is often used symbolically in the Bible to refer to Israel.

In fact, Dalv is a fanatic anti-Bible who is ignorant to the full understanding. Let's not forget that the Bible has withstood the test of time for millennia; a Johnny-come-lately is not going to change anything.

If you want to read about the fig tree cursing, go to https://www.gotquestions.org/curse-fig-tree.html


just want to point out that just because something has been around a long time, doesn't mean it's right. people believed the earth was flat for centuries until we discovered it was round...
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:17 pm

That said, reading things symbolically is perfectly normal and no one objects to doing it with other books.
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Postby MUTU » Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:19 pm

nm462272 wrote:
MUTU wrote:
Dumbledore7 wrote:Seriously though why did Jesus get pissed off at a tree and why is it in the Bible?

He didn't. Dalv is making the mistake of taking excerpts from the Bible without understanding the context and reading it all literally. The "fig tree" is often used symbolically in the Bible to refer to Israel.

In fact, Dalv is a fanatic anti-Bible who is ignorant to the full understanding. Let's not forget that the Bible has withstood the test of time for millennia; a Johnny-come-lately is not going to change anything.

If you want to read about the fig tree cursing, go to https://www.gotquestions.org/curse-fig-tree.html


just want to point out that just because something has been around a long time, doesn't mean it's right. people believed the earth was flat for centuries until we discovered it was round...

That's a discovery, it's different. I'm talking about a number of books that were scrutinized by several millions (or billions) of people over the course of millennia and nobody managed to bring a killer argument that can't be disputed easily by people who understand the Bible (not saying I do). And if nobody managed to do that up to now, it would take quite some arrogance from Dalv if he believes he can be "the one".

The Bible is considerably bigger than all of us together, let's show it some respect. Seeing these quarter-assed attempts to ridicule it seems like seeing a 5 year old fat, crippled boy claiming Messi wouldn't be able to dribble around him.
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