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[2017-10-08] Germany vs Azerbaijan

Discussions on international matches played by Germany's senior national team and youth teams.
 

What is your prediction for this match?

Poll ended at Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:45 pm

Germany will win
1
100%
It will end in a draw
0
No votes
Azerbaijan will win
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 1

Re: [2017-10-08] Germany vs Azerbaijan

Postby MUTU » Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:44 am

RedQueen wrote:@Mutu:
You're seriously comparing Brandt with Rode and Kirchhoff? When were Rode and Kirchhoff ever in the discussion of being top talents? Brandt is still rated one of the top talents on goalimpact.

Well, yes. I can honestly say that I had more hope for Rode and Kirchhoff at the time we signed them than I'd have for Brandt if we signed him in January. Perhaps I was naïve back then, or maybe nowadays I'm just paranoid, but this is my opinion at this point in time. I rate speed as a very close 2nd most important attribute for a winger, just after crossing ability. I would be rating him higher if he was faster with worse crossing, though, since crossing can be learnt while speed can hardly be improved at all.

Basically my personal opinion is that even if Brandt becomes the best dribbler in the football history and the best crosser in football history, he'll still be a class below Ribery and Robben in my books, because he will never be as fast as they were in their prime.
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Re: [2017-10-08] Germany vs Azerbaijan

Postby RedQueen » Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:55 am

Except Brandt isn't a classic winger, because Leverkusen didn't play classic wingers. They played 4-2-2-2, with two wide 10s.

What do we know how Bayern will play in the future. We don't even know who will be the coach.
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Re: [2017-10-08] Germany vs Azerbaijan

Postby MUTU » Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:58 am

RedQueen wrote:Except Brandt isn't a classic winger, because Leverkusen didn't play classic wingers. They played 4-2-2-2, with two wide 10s.

What do we know how Bayern will play in the future. We don't even know who will be the coach.

At this point in time, as a wide 10, he'd still be 4th in the pecking order behind Mueller, James and Thiago. How exactly would that help him reach his potential?
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Re: [2017-10-08] Germany vs Azerbaijan

Postby RedQueen » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:16 am

Well, that's a general problem not only applying to Brandt. As long as we don't play talents because they are "behind in the pecking order", they'll never reach their potential.

For some reason Hasenhüttl could play two 18 year old CBs in a game he basically had to win. Read an interview this morning where he said they have an obligation to develop a player like Upamecano so he reaches his potential, and therefore some players who are older and more experienced have to take a step back. In Dortmund Tuchel played Dembele out of position on the 10, because he thought that would improve his tactical understanding. Both decisions that could cost their teams points, and yet they took them. Only Bayern can't afford that apparently.
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Re: [2017-10-08] Germany vs Azerbaijan

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:20 am

RedQueen wrote:Well, that's a general problem not only applying to Brandt. As long as we don't play talents because they are "behind in the pecking order", they'll never reach their potential.

For some reason Hasenhüttl could play two 18 year old CBs in a game he basically had to win. Read an interview this morning where he said they have an obligation to develop a player like Upamecano so he reaches his potential, and therefore some players who are older and more experienced have to take a step back. In Dortmund Tuchel played Dembele out of position on the 10, because he thought that would improve his tactical understanding. Both decisions that could cost their teams points, and yet they took them. Only Bayern can't afford that apparently.

Which is weird, because we are the ones most likely to come back from behind later in the season.
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Re: [2017-10-08] Germany vs Azerbaijan

Postby MUTU » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:50 am

RedQueen wrote:Well, that's a general problem not only applying to Brandt. As long as we don't play talents because they are "behind in the pecking order", they'll never reach their potential.

For some reason Hasenhüttl could play two 18 year old CBs in a game he basically had to win. Read an interview this morning where he said they have an obligation to develop a player like Upamecano so he reaches his potential, and therefore some players who are older and more experienced have to take a step back. In Dortmund Tuchel played Dembele out of position on the 10, because he thought that would improve his tactical understanding. Both decisions that could cost their teams points, and yet they took them. Only Bayern can't afford that apparently.
Ok let's say we get Brandt and play him on the wings for now until he reaches his potential and starts playing more centrally. Don't we still have surplus to requirements? The central attacking midfielders in the squad aren't exactly old. We'd need to sell someone.
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Re: [2017-10-08] Germany vs Azerbaijan

Postby RedQueen » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:57 am

Will James want to stay now that Carlo is gone?
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Re: [2017-10-08] Germany vs Azerbaijan

Postby MUTU » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:59 am

RedQueen wrote:Will James want to stay now that Carlo is gone?

Are you suggesting that he was very happy under Carlo? I fail to see how that was possible because, injury aside, he hardly played anyway. I'm expecting Heynckes to play him more often than Ancelotti, whilst providing him with better training. That should be more important than any kind of friendship they had. Besides, it's not the first time that Ancelotti was fired whilst he was busy coaching James.
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Re: [2017-10-08] Germany vs Azerbaijan

Postby RedQueen » Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:32 pm

I don't know, there are some rumours that he wants to go back to Madrid; don't know whether there's something to it.
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Re: [2017-10-08] Germany vs Azerbaijan

Postby MUTU » Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:45 pm

RedQueen wrote:I don't know, there are some rumours that he wants to go back to Madrid; don't know whether there's something to it.

I doubt they're real. How can he be unhappy and wants to leave before he experienced the first training session (let alone match!) under Heynckes? At the most, it's more of a wait-and-see situation for him. Seems to me like these rumours were completely fabricated.
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Re: [2017-10-08] Germany vs Azerbaijan

Postby Pelin » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:51 am

Vidal will be 31 years old next summer, Though l wanted him to start one more season to be Goretzka's or Tolisso's mentor, he underperformed so far. l hope he regain his self quickly.

Vidal, Tolisso, Goretkza if we sign him. 3 of them is too much.

Players like James and Brandt will give the coach more flexibility and more option tactically. l'm not againist signing Brandt, though l'm againist having both Gnabry and Brandt together.
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Re: [2017-10-08] Germany vs Azerbaijan

Postby Manchu » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:50 pm

America USA wrote:^ I get your point but he was poor today, wasn’t he? He still has potential though

No. He was imperfect against Azerbaijan, but not poor. There's a big difference.

Draxler was "perfect" against Northern Ireland. He never misplaced a pass nor lost the ball through dribbling. He also created nothing and was basically useless.

Brandt, by contrast, made a lot of mistakes against Azerbaijan. He misplaced a lot of passes and tried taking on the left back too often with dribbling. You could tell that he had very little playing time with any of the other players on the team because he lacked chemistry with them, and playing right wingback only the second time ever didn't help either(interestingly, he was much better in the second half). There even were a few chances that Brandt really should have done better with.

Despite all of this, Brandt was still the most creative player on the field from the right wingback position(Muller was also very creative but partly because Brandt was doing a good job feeding him the ball), which is rather impressive. He was so much better than Sane(an incredible talent in his own right) that it wasn't even funny.

Let us go over the goals that Germany scored. Two of them were off of corners. One of them was Emre Can doing the best to make us forget how terrible he was the rest of the game(I didn't work in my case). Finally, two of them were actually scored from open play and from decent chances.

The Sandro Wagner goal was scored off a very accurate cross from Brandt. Notably, Brandt only tried crossing twice in the air the entire game, and got one assist(the other one also accurate, but it was cleared at the last minute emergency defense seconds before Wagner was going to score). Brandt's like the anti-Coman.

Goretzka's second goal was assisted by Leroy Sane's cross from the half-space. Sane, of course, received the ball from Brandt's throughball after Brandt had recovered the ball in midfield during one of the rare moments in the game that he came inside.

Moreover, Brandt was doing a very good job tracking back and defending, which is something equally important but which few people focus on when they are talking about offensive players.

Thus, although there were issues with his performance, this game only made me want Brandt more at Bayern.

MUTU wrote:
RedQueen wrote:@Mutu:
You're seriously comparing Brandt with Rode and Kirchhoff? When were Rode and Kirchhoff ever in the discussion of being top talents? Brandt is still rated one of the top talents on goalimpact.

Well, yes. I can honestly say that I had more hope for Rode and Kirchhoff at the time we signed them than I'd have for Brandt if we signed him in January. Perhaps I was naïve back then, or maybe nowadays I'm just paranoid, but this is my opinion at this point in time. I rate speed as a very close 2nd most important attribute for a winger, just after crossing ability. I would be rating him higher if he was faster with worse crossing, though, since crossing can be learnt while speed can hardly be improved at all.

Basically my personal opinion is that even if Brandt becomes the best dribbler in the football history and the best crosser in football history, he'll still be a class below Ribery and Robben in my books, because he will never be as fast as they were in their prime.

Here's a few questions for you: why is speed important? Under what tactical circumstances does it make a difference? How can a player make up for a lack of speed(because there are many ways)? How many goals does Robben score because he's fast as opposed to because he can cut inside? When did Sane's speed make a difference against Azerbaijan?

In fact, I find all the bellyaching over Brandt's speed to be quite strange. He doesn't have Sane's speed, but he's not slow by any means, and his acceleration is pretty good. Moreover, we're a possession team which almost always plays opponents who park the bus. Brandt is even excellent when counterattacking because he makes the right decisions and plays very accurate passes with both feet(most counter attacks fail because someone makes the wrong decision or plays a bad pass, not because the players weren't fast enough).
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Re: [2017-10-08] Germany vs Azerbaijan

Postby YlonenXabi » Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:12 am

Why is speed important?

If speed wasn't important Ribery would still be one of the best players in the world
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Re: [2017-10-08] Germany vs Azerbaijan

Postby aterford » Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:00 am

I think there needs to be a balance.
We had all the speed in the world in Costa and Coman, but I think we all realize there's more to it than just that.
Ribery hasn't lost only his speed. His control isn't so good anymore, his dribbling isn't so good anymore, he's not as tricky.
Brandt might not be as fast as Ribery or Robben in their primes, or Costa or Coman, or Sane or whoever - but he has that "something" that allows him to beat guys with things other than speed. And let's be real - just because he's not as fast as Coman/Costa/prime Robbery doesn't mean he's slow. Brandt is not slow by any means. That's like saying Justin Gatlin is slow because he wasn't as fast as Usain Bolt.
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Re: [2017-10-08] Germany vs Azerbaijan

Postby YlonenXabi » Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:12 pm

Yes, I'm not saying speed is the most important thing. But it IS a very important attribute especially if we are talking about wingers
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