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General German national team thread

Discussions on international matches played by Germany's senior national team and youth teams.
 

Re: General German national team thread

Postby MUTU » Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:45 pm

ramsej84 wrote:Gomez should not be there instead



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Re: General German national team thread

Postby America USA » Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:45 am

@ Manchu - Weiser has not started for Berlin in a month, how does he make it before Toljan :-|

And with the way things are going Goretzka have to be really really lucky to make it to the final WC squad. A huge question mark over Neuer as well.

In the WC, any team can play a maximum of 7 games. IF Germany can reach the final (and hopefully win it!) I think every German player should play a maximum of 6 games during the competition. Even during the WC itself Löw should rotate a bit because if things go according to plan* Germany should not face a really tough opponent (at least on paper) until the SF stage.

* Things going as per Plan = Germany top their Group and Brazil as well as Belgium win their respective groups.
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Re: General German national team thread

Postby Jorge » Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:19 am

Jonas Hector should be a starter, true that Cologne is at the bottom of the table but they have improved somehow after the winter break with wins away at Hamburg and Leipzig and at home vs Gladbach while they gave us a good game at the Allianz Arena as well as vs Schalke; coincidentally this is when Hector came back from injury and he has played 90 minutes in pretty much each game.
Last edited by Jorge on Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: General German national team thread

Postby Jorge » Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:38 am

#12 wrote:Fine with Gomez, but in what world are Özil and Goretzka wingers?

I doubt there is room for Gomez in a 23 men roster.

Löw's preferred formation does not have pure offensive wingers, he plays with 3 CB's and 2 wingbacks (primarily Kimmich and Hector, during the qualifiers), in this formation Ozil and Goretzka are offensive midfielders.
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Re: General German national team thread

Postby Manchu » Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:09 am

Jorge wrote:
#12 wrote:Fine with Gomez, but in what world are Özil and Goretzka wingers?

I doubt there is room for Gomez in a 23 men roster.

At this point, both Mario Gomez and Sandro Wagner* have made powerful statements in the last few weeks about why they should go to Russia. Timo Werner is yet to reply in any shape or fashion.

In fact, if I were in charge of the national team, I would bring both Gomez and Wagner to Russia and leave Werner at home. Werner is far too one dimensional a player for my tastes and I fail to see the utility of bringing a 1.81 m player with no particular aerial ability and no capacity for holdup play to play against teams that will 100% park the bus and give no opportunities for a center forward to use his speed. As we have seen repeatably before both with Bayern Munich and with the NT, even having a big center forward which we can threaten to cross to makes it so much harder to defend against us.

*Gomez by showing that he still has his scoring boats, Wagner by demonstrating that he is good enough to lead the attack for a top team
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Re: General German national team thread

Postby MUTU » Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:36 am

Manchu wrote:
Jorge wrote:
#12 wrote:Fine with Gomez, but in what world are Özil and Goretzka wingers?

I doubt there is room for Gomez in a 23 men roster.

At this point, both Mario Gomez and Sandro Wagner* have made powerful statements in the last few weeks about why they should go to Russia. Timo Werner is yet to reply in any shape or fashion.

In fact, if I were in charge of the national team, I would bring both Gomez and Wagner to Russia and leave Werner at home. Werner is far too one dimensional a player for my tastes and I fail to see the utility of bringing a 1.81 m player with no particular aerial ability and no capacity for holdup play to play against teams that will 100% park the bus and give no opportunities for a center forward to use his speed. As we have seen repeatably before both with Bayern Munich and with the NT, even having a big center forward which we can threaten to cross to makes it so much harder to defend against us.

*Gomez by showing that he still has his scoring boats, Wagner by demonstrating that he is good enough to lead the attack for a top team

To be fair, the tendency in national teams is to have more open spaces than club teams. This is one major reason (if not the only reason) why a certain Lukas Podolski has been unable to replicate his national team form at club level. If I was Loew, I'd take all three. If I was to drop one, it'd have to be Wagner due to him being similar to Gomez yet unable to match the latter's experience and/or chemistry with the other players.

If the opposing defenders are tall and bulky, I'd play Werner.
If the opposing defenders are short, I'd play Gomez/Wagner.
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Re: General German national team thread

Postby America USA » Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:06 pm

MUTU wrote:If the opposing defenders are tall and bulky, I'd play Werner.
If the opposing defenders are short, I'd play Gomez/Wagner.


On the contrary if there is a parked bus of big strong defenders, you need guys like Wagner/Gomez to score and players like Werner would have no space to run into and be totally ineffective. The WC qualifying game against Fake Ireland is a perfect example. Löw used Wagner up front because we all knew that the Irish were going to park the bus and there would be no space to get in behind. So you needed a big CF like Wagner/Gomez up front to win in physical battles, win in the air and hold up play. Werner would’ve been outmuscled in such a game and with no space to run into, he would be totally ineffective.

They way I see it, against teams with big defenders that will park the bus (Sweden, S. Korea? and England/Poland perhaps? and maybe even France) Wagner/Gomez would be more effective but against teams that come out to play (Spain, Brazil, Belgium and Argentina) Werner would be more effective with space to run into behind the defenders and use his pace.
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Re: General German national team thread

Postby MUTU » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:05 pm

America USA wrote:
MUTU wrote:If the opposing defenders are tall and bulky, I'd play Werner.
If the opposing defenders are short, I'd play Gomez/Wagner.


On the contrary if there is a parked bus of big strong defenders, you need guys like Wagner/Gomez to score and players like Werner would have no space to run into and be totally ineffective. The WC qualifying game against Fake Ireland is a perfect example. Löw used Wagner up front because we all knew that the Irish were going to park the bus and there would be no space to get in behind. So you needed a big CF like Wagner/Gomez up front to win in physical battles, win in the air and hold up play. Werner would’ve been outmuscled in such a game and with no space to run into, he would be totally ineffective.

They way I see it, against teams with big defenders that will park the bus (Sweden, S. Korea? and England/Poland perhaps? and maybe even France) Wagner/Gomez would be more effective but against teams that come out to play (Spain, Brazil, Belgium and Argentina) Werner would be more effective with space to run into behind the defenders and use his pace.

I understand what you're getting at, but it depends on how well they're really able to park their bus. If they're leaving spaces, and national teams almost always do, then an agile player up front is what you'd need. If they're not, then I agree you have little option but to try and outmuscle them.
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Re: General German national team thread

Postby Jorge » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:17 pm

Manchu wrote:
Jorge wrote:
#12 wrote:Fine with Gomez, but in what world are Özil and Goretzka wingers?

I doubt there is room for Gomez in a 23 men roster.

At this point, both Mario Gomez and Sandro Wagner* have made powerful statements in the last few weeks about why they should go to Russia. Timo Werner is yet to reply in any shape or fashion.


In football things are very fluid, any striker can have a hot spell then go cold so the last few weeks in the big scheme of things won't mean much for Loew if they are not sustained by a similar performance through a longer period of time approaching the summer. If both Gomez and Wagner keep performing like recently it will be hard to make a case against them, but if things go back to how they have been throughout this season and in the context of the Conf. Cup performance most likely Werner is in and most likely Gomez is out.
The defining moment for Gomez could be the few high profile friendlies that we have coming, if he proves that he is back he will be in Russia regardless of how the rest of the season goes for him at club level, this at the expense of Wagner who has been very effective for us, but let's not forget that he still is our supersub, not our star striker.
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Re: General German national team thread

Postby aterford » Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:53 pm

Presented without comment, interpret as you will.

Since the second half of the season, Gomez has 4 goals and 2 assists, Werner has 4 goals and 1 assist, and Wagner has 3 goals.
This works out to:
Werner 0.66 g+a/90
Gomez 0.79 g+a/90
Wagner 0.96 g+a/90
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Re: General German national team thread

Postby America USA » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:13 pm

I hope in the future we see the following changes in football.
1) A 25 man squad for the major tournaments.
2) Four Subs permitted in all games (League, Cup or whatever) in the 90 minutes and one extra sub allowed in Extra-time.

Löw’s squad selection against Spain and Brasil is gonna give a better insight.
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Re: General German national team thread

Postby Jorge » Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:26 pm

aterford wrote:Presented without comment, interpret as you will.

Since the second half of the season, Gomez has 4 goals and 2 assists, Werner has 4 goals and 1 assist, and Wagner has 3 goals.
This works out to:
Werner 0.66 g+a/90
Gomez 0.79 g+a/90
Wagner 0.96 g+a/90


Well put. I do not see where the idea that Werner is slumping is coming from. I do not watch every minute of RBL but I watch enough and he seems to be in top form even when he does not score, only the space that he creates with his speed and mobility will serve Germany well for 90 minutes each game, something that Gomez or Wagner do not provide, on the other hand I get that in the air Wagner provides a lot or he can out-muscle defenders in the area, but is Germany going to send cross and after cross for 90 minutes? it will not go as a team too far in the tournament. I see this more as an extra resource and it reminds me the days of Jancker and we all know how that worked out. Maybe a rejuvenated Gomez can provide more than either Werner or Wagner but Gomez will be 33 in the summer and with his career with the NT interrupted for so long it is hard to be optimistic.
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Re: General German national team thread

Postby aterford » Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:49 pm

Jorge wrote:
aterford wrote:Presented without comment, interpret as you will.

Since the second half of the season, Gomez has 4 goals and 2 assists, Werner has 4 goals and 1 assist, and Wagner has 3 goals.
This works out to:
Werner 0.66 g+a/90
Gomez 0.79 g+a/90
Wagner 0.96 g+a/90


Well put. I do not see where the idea that Werner is slumping is coming from. I do not watch every minute of RBL but I watch enough and he seems to be in top form even when he does not score, only the space that he creates with his speed and mobility will serve Germany well for 90 minutes each game, something that Gomez or Wagner do not provide, on the other hand I get that in the air Wagner provides a lot or he can out-muscle defenders in the area, but is Germany going to send cross and after cross for 90 minutes? it will not go as a team too far in the tournament. I see this more as an extra resource and it reminds me the days of Jancker and we all know how that worked out. Maybe a rejuvenated Gomez can provide more than either Werner or Wagner but Gomez will be 33 in the summer and with his career with the NT interrupted for so long it is hard to be optimistic.


Ultimately for me I suppose Werner has slowed down a bit (though IMO he played really great vs Napoli just a couple weeks ago) but realistically speaking I think it would take a small miracle for him to not make the squad. I don't think his spot is really in any doubt tbh.
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Re: General German national team thread

Postby America USA » Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:44 pm

Discuss: Which players do you think are almost certain to make the final WC squad?

I can only take three names at this moment; Ter Stegen, Kimmich and Hummels.
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Re: General German national team thread

Postby Jorge » Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:06 am

America USA wrote:Discuss: Which players do you think are almost certain to make the final WC squad?

I can only take three names at this moment; Ter Stegen, Kimmich and Hummels.


Kroos, Boateng, Hector, Sane, Muller, Reus, Gündoğan, Khedira, Ozil, Can, Draxler, Neuer (even on Crutches).............
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