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[2012-09-11] Austria vs Germany

Discussions on international matches played by Germany's senior national team and youth teams.
 

What is your prediction for this match?

Poll ended at Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:45 pm

Austria will win
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It will end in a draw
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Germany will win
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Total votes : 11

Re: [2012-09-11] Austria vs Germany

Postby Commodore » Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:31 pm

MUTU wrote:
Commodore wrote:Off the top of my head a more recent example: Alaba vs Real received a 2.5 in both games (1 being the best and 6 being the worst).

They f*cking say Alaba was AVERAGE in these two games FFS!

First off, 2.5 is a good rating that's much better than average. In fact, last season's best defender was again Mats Hummels with an average rating of 2.65.
Secondly, don't forget that Alaba also conceded a penalty.

I don't think he deserved much more than 2.5 to be honest.


Assuming 11 possible ratings (1, 1.5, 2, ... 6) he received a 4/11, or (in per cent) a 63% rating... IN EACH OF THE TWO GAMES.

I only saw him concede a penalty in one of those games. In both games I saw him take a certain Ballon D'or contestant out of the game completely whenever he appeared on his side of the pitch. In both games I saw him fight his 19 year old heart out for the team defensively as well as offensively, keeping his flank clean and creating stuff up front with Ribéry. In the second game I saw him take (and make) the first penalty like a f*cking boss.

In my book every rating between 40% and 60% is average. He cleared that by 3% in both matches, congratulations.

I maintain my stance on that matter. LOL Kicker Noten, and Schmelzer sucks (at least Kicker Noten are no indicator whatsoever that he doesn't).
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Re: [2012-09-11] Austria vs Germany

Postby walter » Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:50 pm

Jorge wrote:Did you realized that Schmelzer will be 25 in 4 months? I know some players blossom late (Bierhoff is a good example) but Schmelzer does not look defensively too good neither for club or country and for sure Germany does not need an offensive left back and they need a reliable defensive one more than anything. Just pay attention at a few goals that Germany conceded in recent history and you will see a pattern.

At this point I prefer to work with what already proved to be better options than keep calling a failed test. Lahm can go back to the left opening the right for Boateng or Bender, even Howedes did not look as bad as the Schmelzer test) or should JLo take a look at players he is not even considering, like Pander (as some said) or try Tim Chandler (if he and Klinsmann can agree on what country he is going to play for)


Nevertheless, he will get another chance. This was only his first REAL game for the NT and, yes, he did poorly, but the whole team also did so to be fair. I'm not a fan of Schmelzer to be honest, but I just think we should play with real fullbacks instead of slotting an, often slow, CB into that position. Schmelzer does have to step up seriously by next game though.
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Re: [2012-09-11] Austria vs Germany

Postby MUTU » Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:50 pm

Commodore wrote:Assuming 11 possible ratings (1, 1.5, 2, ... 6) he received a 4/11, or (in per cent) a 63% rating... IN EACH OF THE TWO GAMES.

It's not the way it works. If the best average throughout the season was 2.65 and he managed a 2.5, then it's a very high rating. You should take ratings in relative terms to other ratings and not worry about percentages and all that.

Ribery was FC Bayern's highest rated player, and he also had an average of 2.65.
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Re: [2012-09-11] Austria vs Germany

Postby quaazi » Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:55 pm

MUTU wrote:Goalkeeper ratings are not accurate. We've had a run of matches during the start of last season where opponents would get 0 or 1 shots on goal at most. You can't give a goalkeeper a high rating if he's only made one save all match, can you? So, don't discredit their ratings by looking at the goalkeeper ones.


Well I did follow up with "seriously though", so I was hoping you'd understand I was kidding.

MUTU wrote:Fair point, but Hummels still had a super Euro 2012. I'd dare say he was Germany's best player at Euro 2012.


I would refrain from calling a defender who took part in a "concede 6 goals in 5 matches" as the best player. Even when Germany didn't look as pathetic in defense (the group stages), he still had a lot of benefit from the understated and consistent Badstuber. Hummels is the flashy partner in both the national team setup and in the club setup (Subotic very often plays a covering role while Hummels does the marking). He naturally attracts a lot more praise because his performances catch the eye more. Personally I'm not sure if that's a good thing, but it's a matter of taste, really.
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Re: [2012-09-11] Austria vs Germany

Postby quaazi » Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:58 pm

walter wrote:Nevertheless, he will get another chance. This was only his first REAL game for the NT and, yes, he did poorly, but the whole team also did so to be fair. I'm not a fan of Schmelzer to be honest, but I just think we should play with real fullbacks instead of slotting an, often slow, CB into that position. Schmelzer does have to step up seriously by next game though.

I'm thinking that if Löw indeed wants to continue on that three-man defense experiment, he should just stick Müller as the other wingback. Wingbacks don't need positional awareness anyway, just a hard work ethic to make sure there's an extra man in defense at all times.
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Re: [2012-09-11] Austria vs Germany

Postby Mazen96 » Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:03 pm

quaazi wrote:
walter wrote:Nevertheless, he will get another chance. This was only his first REAL game for the NT and, yes, he did poorly, but the whole team also did so to be fair. I'm not a fan of Schmelzer to be honest, but I just think we should play with real fullbacks instead of slotting an, often slow, CB into that position. Schmelzer does have to step up seriously by next game though.

I'm thinking that if Löw indeed wants to continue on that three-man defense experiment, he should just stick Müller as the other wingback. Wingbacks don't need positional awareness anyway, just a hard work ethic to make sure there's an extra man in defense at all times.


As crazy it might seem, I would actually like to see Loew try something of the sort.
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Re: [2012-09-11] Austria vs Germany

Postby Commodore » Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:04 pm

MUTU wrote:
Commodore wrote:Assuming 11 possible ratings (1, 1.5, 2, ... 6) he received a 4/11, or (in per cent) a 63% rating... IN EACH OF THE TWO GAMES.

It's not the way it works. If the best average throughout the season was 2.65 and he managed a 2.5, then it's a very high rating. You should take ratings in relative terms to other ratings and not worry about percentages and all that.

Ribery was FC Bayern's highest rated player, and he also had an average of 2.65.


Well yes, it works exactly like that. If Alaba's performance against Real is a 63 out of 100 (which it factually and absolutely is according to the system they use), but that's somehow indicative of a superb performance because no one ever breaches it anyways, then there's no need to have a rating in place that goes higher than that to begin with.

Kicker Noten are based on marks kids get in German schools. If you do superbly you get a 1 on your report. You don't get a 2minus because little Johnny who's sitting next to you never gets a better mark and he's doing pretty well, now isn't he? No, you get a straight 1, period.

If you have an absolute rating system in place that goes from 1-6 and can thus be converted to percentages, then a superb performance MUST be reflected by a superb rating - in an absolute, not a relative sense.
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Re: [2012-09-11] Austria vs Germany

Postby MUTU » Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:05 pm

quaazi wrote:I would refrain from calling a defender who took part in a "concede 6 goals in 5 matches" as the best player

Not that it will change your opinion, but on 20th June, Hummels was voted as the top player (in all positions) in the Euro 2012 up to that date, by THE ENGLISH.

One single mistake against Italy (which was also followed by an almost-as-bad mistake by Badstuber) and suddenly he didn't have a good tournament? Fact is: he shouldn't even have been marking Cassano, it should have been the RB there.
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Re: [2012-09-11] Austria vs Germany

Postby quaazi » Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:10 pm

MUTU wrote:Not that it will change your opinion, but on 20th June, Hummels was voted as the top player (in all positions) in the Euro 2012 up to that date, by THE ENGLISH.


The same nation that subscribes to the "brave John Terry" theory. I'm sorry, but you're just proving my point about flashiness.

MUTU wrote:One single mistake against Italy (which was also followed by an almost-as-bad mistake by Badstuber) and suddenly he didn't have a good tournament? Fact is: he shouldn't even have been marking Cassano, it should have been the RB there.


Which shows what he's like when he's out of his comfort zone. Admittedly, it's a bit harsh on him - the coach should always know his players' strengths and weaknesses, and adjust the system to it. But it also doesn't mean he can claim titles like "best player".
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Re: [2012-09-11] Austria vs Germany

Postby MUTU » Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:10 pm

Commodore wrote:
MUTU wrote:
Commodore wrote:Assuming 11 possible ratings (1, 1.5, 2, ... 6) he received a 4/11, or (in per cent) a 63% rating... IN EACH OF THE TWO GAMES.

It's not the way it works. If the best average throughout the season was 2.65 and he managed a 2.5, then it's a very high rating. You should take ratings in relative terms to other ratings and not worry about percentages and all that.

Ribery was FC Bayern's highest rated player, and he also had an average of 2.65.


Well yes, it works exactly like that. If Alaba's performance against Real is a 63 out of 100 (which it factually and absolutely is according to the system they use), but that's somehow indicative of a superb performance because no one ever breaches it anyways, then there's no need to have a rating in place that goes higher than that to begin with.

Kicker Noten are based on marks kids get in German schools. If you do superbly you get a 1 on your report. You don't get a 2minus because little Johnny who's sitting next to you never gets a better mark and he's doing pretty well, now isn't he? No, you get a straight 1, period.

If you have an absolute rating system in place that goes from 1-6 and can thus be converted to percentages, then a superb performance MUST be reflected by a superb rating - in an absolute, not a relative sense.

Hrmm? They're more or less based the same way as English make their ratings. 1 is equivalent to 10, 1.5 is equivalent to 9.
It's very rare to see players rated 1, just as it is almost impossible to find a player who gets a 10 in the English system. If you've played Football Manager, you'd know how difficult it is: a player needs to score like 5 or 6 goals to get a rating of 10.0.

As an example, we won 6-1 last Bundesliga match, yet no player got a 1.
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Re: [2012-09-11] Austria vs Germany

Postby quaazi » Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:17 pm

As a sidenote about the whole wingback/3-man defense talk - it's a real pity that Germany doesn't have a proper anchor man. I used to think Khedira was the guy for that role, but he has refined his game into a more box-to-box role and is hindered by the need to stay behind as often as he does next to Schweini and especially Kroos. Löw really needs a Biscuits type player to play the tiki-taka he has such a boner for. But there aren't any. Schweini and Khedira work very well in a double pivot because of their all around play, the Bender's are too bold and action-heavy, Gündogan and Kroos are both too creative and defensively suspect... maybe they should try Hummels or Holger in that role. after all, it'd be the perfect compromise between a 4-3-3 and a three man defense to play a centerback as the anchor man.

I'm just throwing ideas at the wall here and seeing what sticks. Beats playing Thräsch and Podolski and Mertesacker, I can tell you that.

... oh god. If Holger or Hummels were fielded further up, that'd be the excuse Löw needs to play Mertesacker instead of actually competent players like Boateng and Höwedes. NEVER MIND.
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Re: [2012-09-11] Austria vs Germany

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:20 pm

I did not watch the game so I cannot comment on Schmelzer's performance, but based on club performance he is Germany's best LB as long as Lahm is played on the right.
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Re: [2012-09-11] Austria vs Germany

Postby Commodore » Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:29 pm

quaazi wrote:As a sidenote about the whole wingback/3-man defense talk - it's a real pity that Germany doesn't have a proper anchor man. I used to think Khedira was the guy for that role, but he has refined his game into a more box-to-box role and is hindered by the need to stay behind as often as he does next to Schweini and especially Kroos. Löw really needs a Biscuits type player to play the tiki-taka he has such a boner for. But there aren't any. Schweini and Khedira work very well in a double pivot because of their all around play, the Bender's are too bold and action-heavy, Gündogan and Kroos are both too creative and defensively suspect... maybe they should try Hummels or Holger in that role. after all, it'd be the perfect compromise between a 4-3-3 and a three man defense to play a centerback as the anchor man.

I'm just throwing ideas at the wall here and seeing what sticks. Beats playing Thräsch and Podolski and Mertesacker, I can tell you that.

... oh god. If Holger or Hummels were fielded further up, that'd be the excuse Löw needs to play Mertesacker instead of actually competent players like Boateng and Höwedes. NEVER MIND.

Yeah have him get creative, try something like that, lose a match and see him get shred to pieces by the media and thus the whole damn media-parroting country.

This isn't a Football Manager game, and no MUTU, I don't play those (although I'm thinking of starting), but you simply have to take into account way more than just winning a game or tactics. These are actual human beings you know, not just 1s and 0s forming pixels on your screen.

That said, I agree seeing Badstuber in a DM role might be interesting but I wouldn't hold my breath to see it happen any time soon. You'd need someone with the managerial balls of Klinsmann and the tactical knowledge of Hitzfeld to try something like that.

I don't know any one person, besides maybe Matthias Sammer who would have both the balls and the knowledge/expertise to do that.
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Re: [2012-09-11] Austria vs Germany

Postby tflags » Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:35 pm

MUTU wrote:One single mistake against Italy (which was also followed by an almost-as-bad mistake by Badstuber) and suddenly he didn't have a good tournament? Fact is: he shouldn't even have been marking Cassano, it should have been the RB there.


The RB, Boateng, was covering their LW, De Rossi. Cassano was left striker, who should have been marked by our left CB, Hummels. The equalizer vs Greece was the same thing. The ball crossed right in front of him and a outran Boateng who isn't really a full back in the first place. :|
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Re: [2012-09-11] Austria vs Germany

Postby MUTU » Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:42 pm

quaazi wrote:If Holger or Hummels were fielded further up, that'd be the excuse Löw needs to play Mertesacker instead of actually competent players like Boateng and Höwedes. NEVER MIND.

Actually not a bad idea. Hummels has experience playing as DM (he was DM at FC Bayern II)

Badstuber/Hoewedes/Boateng for CD, Hummels in DM. But that would leave out someone from Schweinsteiger, Kroos or Khedira.
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