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Re: RasenBallsport Leipzig

Postby ramsej84 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:20 am

one team per owner as it should be... Period.
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Re: RasenBallsport Leipzig

Postby MUTU » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:25 am

ramsej84 wrote:one team per owner as it should be... Period.

I agree, but it should have been stopped way earlier, i.e. UEFA should not have allowed RB Leipzig to be created at all, rather than not allow them to participate in UEFA competitions alone. Simply because they allowed RB Leipzig to exist, they have created uncertainty surrounding the season targets of clubs in 2 separate countries, and especially for the 2 Red Bull teams in question. They don't know how much effort they need to qualify for the Champions League now. This alone for me is more important than the remote possibility of RB Leipzig playing against Red Bull Salzburg... just make a clause for them to avoid themselves all the way in the draws for group stage and all knockout stages and that they can only play each other in a possible final, and that's it, problem solved.
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Re: RasenBallsport Leipzig

Postby ramsej84 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:05 pm

MUTU wrote:
ramsej84 wrote:one team per owner as it should be... Period.

I agree, but it should have been stopped way earlier, i.e. UEFA should not have allowed RB Leipzig to be created at all, rather than not allow them to participate in UEFA competitions alone. Simply because they allowed RB Leipzig to exist, they have created uncertainty surrounding the season targets of clubs in 2 separate countries, and especially for the 2 Red Bull teams in question. They don't know how much effort they need to qualify for the Champions League now. This alone for me is more important than the remote possibility of RB Leipzig playing against Red Bull Salzburg... just make a clause for them to avoid themselves all the way in the draws for group stage and all knockout stages and that they can only play each other in a possible final, and that's it, problem solved.


You have a point....
Such although for different matters Uefa has such rules in place...
Azerbaijan can't be drawn in the same group as Armenia and Gibraltar can't be with Spain (not to spare them from double digit goals)
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Re: RasenBallsport Leipzig

Postby MUTU » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:19 pm

ramsej84 wrote:
MUTU wrote:
ramsej84 wrote:one team per owner as it should be... Period.

I agree, but it should have been stopped way earlier, i.e. UEFA should not have allowed RB Leipzig to be created at all, rather than not allow them to participate in UEFA competitions alone. Simply because they allowed RB Leipzig to exist, they have created uncertainty surrounding the season targets of clubs in 2 separate countries, and especially for the 2 Red Bull teams in question. They don't know how much effort they need to qualify for the Champions League now. This alone for me is more important than the remote possibility of RB Leipzig playing against Red Bull Salzburg... just make a clause for them to avoid themselves all the way in the draws for group stage and all knockout stages and that they can only play each other in a possible final, and that's it, problem solved.


You have a point....
Such although for different matters Uefa has such rules in place...
Azerbaijan can't be drawn in the same group as Armenia and Gibraltar can't be with Spain (not to spare them from double digit goals)

UEFA likes to get its hands dirty with politics and racism, but for other purposes they're motivated by money.
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Re: RasenBallsport Leipzig

Postby aterford » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:19 pm

MUTU wrote:I will never understand UEFA's rules. In order to cover themselves for the possibility of the teams playing against each other, they open up more cheating. Chances are that if they're not going to be allowed to participate with both teams, Red Bull heads will order Red Bull Salzburg to lose matches on purpose, then loan all of Red Bull Salzburg's best players to RB Leipzig just so they will have the best team possible playing in the CL.

The other possibility is that Red Bull Salzburg win the league and half of RB Leipzig's team will be loaned to Red Bull Salzburg next season and RB Leipzig would end up struggling to avoid relegation next season. In any case, all this is unfair for the teams of both countries involved. Currently the 5th place team in Germany (Hertha BSC) don't know whether or not they will be playing in the CL next season if they retain their position in the table, nor will they be able to plan during the transfer windows because they have no idea if their aim is to be in the top 4 or the top 5.


I'm curious as to how it would all shake out as well. Let's say Salzburg wins and RBL is disqualified. Would the BL's 4th spot be automatically filled by the #5 team, Hertha? Or perhaps, currently the ABL spot (presumably Salzburg) is not automatic and sends them into qualification playoff. Perhaps if Salzburg won and RBL was disqualified then UEFA would just award the automatic spot to Salzburg rather than send an extra BL team. They've been kinda all over the place with the way they've handled these things in the past.
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Re: RasenBallsport Leipzig

Postby RedQueen » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:33 pm

bbenno wrote:I dont understand how the RB people in charge haven't thought about this up front before the project?
If what aterford states holds in the end, then its a major blow to the whole RB project.

They have.
Most of this entire story has been hyped up by 11Freunde football magazine, which has been opposing the RB Leipzig project from the start. There's been a lot of discussion about this topic in the German media in the last couple of weeks and the bottom line is that almost certainly nothing's going to happen in regard to the starting permission of the clubs, they'll face some fines for FFP issues at most. DW is simply late to the party with that article.

Red Bull hasn't been an owner of RB Salzburg since 2015, they're an ordinary sponsor and they have no special rights according to the club's statutes, Mintzlaff hasn't been in any function that's influential in Salzburg. Both him and Rangnick have left their offices in Salzburg last summer. They've disentangled matters to the extent that RB Salzburg is formally an independent club. On top of it, it turned out today that at Leipzig, a lot of the money Leipzig received from Red Bull was on a loan basis rather than a grant, so FFP issues probably won't be a problem either.

Given how this club, and the entire Red Bull corporation is managed it's kinda funny that people would seriously believe they'd go about that sort of thing like rookies and blindly stumble into such a trap.
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Re: RasenBallsport Leipzig

Postby ramsej84 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:36 pm

the solution for this saga is :
RED BULL to become sponsor of the UCL and everybody will be happy.
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Re: RasenBallsport Leipzig

Postby RedQueen » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:42 pm

MUTU wrote:
ramsej84 wrote:one team per owner as it should be... Period.

I agree, but it should have been stopped way earlier, i.e. UEFA should not have allowed RB Leipzig to be created at all, rather than not allow them to participate in UEFA competitions alone.

AFAIK the UEFA has no right to meddle with national football business of clubs that aren't competing in UEFA competitions. RB Leipzig was founded as a fifth division club; as such they weren't even subject to the statutes of the DFL.
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Re: RasenBallsport Leipzig

Postby MUTU » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:52 pm

aterford wrote:
MUTU wrote:I will never understand UEFA's rules. In order to cover themselves for the possibility of the teams playing against each other, they open up more cheating. Chances are that if they're not going to be allowed to participate with both teams, Red Bull heads will order Red Bull Salzburg to lose matches on purpose, then loan all of Red Bull Salzburg's best players to RB Leipzig just so they will have the best team possible playing in the CL.

The other possibility is that Red Bull Salzburg win the league and half of RB Leipzig's team will be loaned to Red Bull Salzburg next season and RB Leipzig would end up struggling to avoid relegation next season. In any case, all this is unfair for the teams of both countries involved. Currently the 5th place team in Germany (Hertha BSC) don't know whether or not they will be playing in the CL next season if they retain their position in the table, nor will they be able to plan during the transfer windows because they have no idea if their aim is to be in the top 4 or the top 5.


I'm curious as to how it would all shake out as well. Let's say Salzburg wins and RBL is disqualified. Would the BL's 4th spot be automatically filled by the #5 team, Hertha? Or perhaps, currently the ABL spot (presumably Salzburg) is not automatic and sends them into qualification playoff. Perhaps if Salzburg won and RBL was disqualified then UEFA would just award the automatic spot to Salzburg rather than send an extra BL team. They've been kinda all over the place with the way they've handled these things in the past.

Not sure what you meant here.

Let's say RB Leipzig finish 4th and Red Bull Salzburg finish 2nd or 3rd. Both would be eligible to play in the UEFA Champions League playoffs and let's imagine that UEFA won't allow both to participate. In this case I *think* RB Leipzig would enter the qualifiers. If RB Leipzig are eliminated in the qualifiers, the team that eliminated them goes through, and Red Bull Salzburg would never enter the competition. You can't suddenly add an extra participant to a tournament.
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Re: RasenBallsport Leipzig

Postby aterford » Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:01 pm

MUTU wrote:
aterford wrote:
MUTU wrote:I will never understand UEFA's rules. In order to cover themselves for the possibility of the teams playing against each other, they open up more cheating. Chances are that if they're not going to be allowed to participate with both teams, Red Bull heads will order Red Bull Salzburg to lose matches on purpose, then loan all of Red Bull Salzburg's best players to RB Leipzig just so they will have the best team possible playing in the CL.

The other possibility is that Red Bull Salzburg win the league and half of RB Leipzig's team will be loaned to Red Bull Salzburg next season and RB Leipzig would end up struggling to avoid relegation next season. In any case, all this is unfair for the teams of both countries involved. Currently the 5th place team in Germany (Hertha BSC) don't know whether or not they will be playing in the CL next season if they retain their position in the table, nor will they be able to plan during the transfer windows because they have no idea if their aim is to be in the top 4 or the top 5.


I'm curious as to how it would all shake out as well. Let's say Salzburg wins and RBL is disqualified. Would the BL's 4th spot be automatically filled by the #5 team, Hertha? Or perhaps, currently the ABL spot (presumably Salzburg) is not automatic and sends them into qualification playoff. Perhaps if Salzburg won and RBL was disqualified then UEFA would just award the automatic spot to Salzburg rather than send an extra BL team. They've been kinda all over the place with the way they've handled these things in the past.

Not sure what you meant here.

Let's say RB Leipzig finish 4th and Red Bull Salzburg finish 2nd or 3rd. Both would be eligible to play in the UEFA Champions League playoffs and let's imagine that UEFA won't allow both to participate. In this case I *think* RB Leipzig would enter the qualifiers. If RB Leipzig are eliminated in the qualifiers, the team that eliminated them goes through, and Red Bull Salzburg would never enter the competition. You can't suddenly add an extra participant to a tournament.


Right. But the winner of the Austrian BL spot is not an automatic spot - it goes to qualifiers. Whereas if RBL finishes 2-3 it's automatic due to BL UEFA coefficient. Let's say Salzburg win ABL and as such disqualify RBL. Would UEFA still send RB Salzburg to qualifiers or would they progress them directly past qualification rather than filling the spot vacated by RBL with another BL club? it'd effectively be removing one spot rather than adding.
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Re: RasenBallsport Leipzig

Postby MUTU » Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:25 pm

aterford wrote:Right. But the winner of the Austrian BL spot is not an automatic spot - it goes to qualifiers. Whereas if RBL finishes 2-3 it's automatic due to BL UEFA coefficient. Let's say Salzburg win ABL and as such disqualify RBL. Would UEFA still send RB Salzburg to qualifiers or would they progress them directly past qualification rather than filling the spot vacated by RBL with another BL club? it'd effectively be removing one spot rather than adding.

I see. I thought the Austrian winner qualified automatically. My bad.

In that case I don't think anything changes.

There are these options:
- Neither team end up in a European spot: obviously nobody plays in Europe
- One team ends up in a European spot: obviously that one team plays in Europe
- One team qualifies to compete in the Champions League, the other in Europa League: the one qualifying for the Champions League plays in the Champions League, the other is disqualified to play in the Europa League.
- Both teams qualify to compete in the same competition:
a) if both teams finished in the same position in their respective league, the one with the highest UEFA league ranking goes through (in this case RB Leipzig).
b) if one team finished in a better position in its respective league, it goes through and the other is disqualified.

Nothing else changes. When one team is disqualified, another team from the same league takes its place.
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Re: RasenBallsport Leipzig

Postby FCB general » Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:11 pm

ramsej84 wrote:one team per owner as it should be... Period.

That happens when you have a businessman inside of football who thinks he can spread his RB group so easily. It seems it won't work as he thought. Now he must find a hole in the laws and regulations.
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Re: RasenBallsport Leipzig

Postby PunkCapitalist » Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:27 pm

RedQueen wrote:
bbenno wrote:I dont understand how the RB people in charge haven't thought about this up front before the project?
If what aterford states holds in the end, then its a major blow to the whole RB project.

They have.
Most of this entire story has been hyped up by 11Freunde football magazine, which has been opposing the RB Leipzig project from the start. There's been a lot of discussion about this topic in the German media in the last couple of weeks and the bottom line is that almost certainly nothing's going to happen in regard to the starting permission of the clubs, they'll face some fines for FFP issues at most. DW is simply late to the party with that article.

Red Bull hasn't been an owner of RB Salzburg since 2015, they're an ordinary sponsor and they have no special rights according to the club's statutes, Mintzlaff hasn't been in any function that's influential in Salzburg. Both him and Rangnick have left their offices in Salzburg last summer. They've disentangled matters to the extent that RB Salzburg is formally an independent club. On top of it, it turned out today that at Leipzig, a lot of the money Leipzig received from Red Bull was on a loan basis rather than a grant, so FFP issues probably won't be a problem either.

Given how this club, and the entire Red Bull corporation is managed it's kinda funny that people would seriously believe they'd go about that sort of thing like rookies and blindly stumble into such a trap.

I suspected this. It's just impossible for smart people, like those running RBL, to make such a huge mistake. Beyond that, I think it would be unfair to the fans and players of RBL. Regardless of what you think about the club and it's relationship to Red Bull, it's hard to say those players haven't earned the chance to play the CL.

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Re: RasenBallsport Leipzig

Postby aterford » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:14 pm

I must be missing something. Where are we getting that Salzburg isn't owned by Red Bull as of 2015? Everything I can find says they are still owned by Red Bull GmbH -- same as RBL -- and both seeming bankrolled by Dietrich Mateschitz. As of summer 2015 Mateschitz was reported as saying he had no intention to give up ownership of both Salzburg and Leipzig. Just this past summer (2016) Rangnick (who was sporting director of both RB Leipzig and Salzburg until late May 2015) ordered the transfer of 4 players - Keita, Upamecano, Bernardo, and Schmitz - from Salzburg to Leipzig as they mounted their challenge in 1. Bundesliga.

Even *if* they were able to separate ownership (again, can't find any evidence that this has happened yet - they've said they plan on doing so, but I can't find any proof that it's actually done yet), I'm not sure they'd be able to get around the "no individual or legal entity (read: sponsor) may have control or influence over more than one club participating in a UEFA club competition" clause; "none may be involved in any capacity whatsoever in the management, administration and/or sporting performance of any other club" , etc.

I'd be surprised as well if Red Bull hadn't considered all options...Though, to be fair, I'm not sure they anticipated the problem arising so quickly, either - I don't think there's really anyone who expected to RBL to perform as well as they have this season...but like I said, I can't find anything to suggest that Red Bull has completely severed ties between the two clubs to the point that they're both wholly independent and not reliant on the same major financial backer. Perhaps someone can point me to some evidence that would corroborate this notion?
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Re: RasenBallsport Leipzig

Postby RedQueen » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:35 pm

That Red Bull is no longer an owner of RB Salzburg is even mentioned in Wikipedia.

Ab 2015 wurde der Einfluss von Red Bull reduziert. Red Bull verzichtete auf das Bestellungs- und Abberufungsrecht und bleibt dem Verein nunmehr als Sponsor erhalten, um sicherzustellen, dass der FC Red Bull Salzburg und RB Leipzig gleichzeitig an Bewerben der UEFA teilnehmen dürfen.[3][4] Im Sommer 2016 wurde der Spielbetrieb und die Lizenzierung in die FC Red Bull Salzburg GmbH ausgegliedert[5], deren einziger Gesellschafter der Verein ist.[6]

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/FC_Red_Bull_Salzburg

They did that precisely because of the UEFA regulations. For the same reason Mintzlaff is now head of Red Bull Global Soccer, which is in charge of overseeing all Red Bull clubs except Salzburg. What happened in the past, is in the past. What matters is that two clubs that have the same owner (not sponsor!) can't compete against one another in the same competition, not for ideological reasons, but to ensure that no "marching orders" who has to win or lose what games can be given out by the joint owner. As long as they can convince UEFA that there is no authority exerting control in both clubs in the season they're both playing in the UEFA competitions, they won't run into problems. As they claim - and I see no reason to doubt that - they're conducting the demerging process in continuous talks with UEFA, so it's safe to assume they are aware of any pitfalls.

If the current situation were a problem, VfL Wolfsburg and FC Bayern playing in the CL last season would have likely had a problem, too, with Wolfsburg being owned by Volkswagen-Audi and Bayern being heavily sponsered by the same company, and VW/Audi managers on the Bayern supervisory board. And just to remind, there were rumours about Winterkorn trying to meddle in the De Bruyne transfer affair to get the player to Bayern.

In my opinion it's just 11Freunde kicking up a fuss for the abovementioned ideological reasons (as they have done from the get-go with RB, and as they always do when it comes to "plastic clubs" - like with the alleged "problems" they were certain Wolfsburg would face with UEFA because of the sum of money VW invests; of course nothing ever happened there, either). The RB people aren't half as stupid as they think; I'll be very surprised if there's gonna be any problem with the starting permissions.
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