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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby aterford » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:15 pm

YlonenXabi wrote:Well, I think they still have better players than any other BL club except us and they could also cash in for some of their players to begin a new project

I wouldn't rule them out so quickly as no other BL team has ever been regular for two seasons in a row and apart from Leipzig I see no other threats for them at the moment


They simply don't have any vision at the moment. Schalke and RBL are both performing much better lately and have a much clearer vision for their teams.

Aubameyang is as good as gone, and by the sounds of things it wouldn't be too surprising to see Weigl and Pulisic gone sooner than later. Most of their recent signings have just been okay - Yarmolenko has been mostly disappointing, Dahoud hasn't really worked for Bosz' system at all, Toprak has been average at best, Isak doesn't play.....Zagadou has been a bright spot, but outside of that I don't think they have quite so much promise.
Outside of that? Reus seems to have gone the way of Badstuber - I don't think he ever gets back to top form. Castro is 30 and kinda sucks, Subotic will be gone, Schmelzer and Piszczek are 29 and 32 respectively, and even Sokratis has now been rumored to be considering a move away.
They do still have some young promising guys but right now many of the mainstays are aging and there's still a lot of holes in the squad.
Philipp, Sancho, and Guerreiro have promise - Götze is getting back into form - and Bartra is pretty good - but I simply think they don't have a title-challenging squad right now, and unless they can prevent some of their top players from leaving, I'm not sure they will for a while.
Yes, they might be able to cash in on some - but they've already shown that they're content to just pocket most of the proceeds rather than invest it in a "new project".
They're not dead in the water yet, but they need to act quick to ensure they don't set themselves back a decade.
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby RedQueen » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:23 pm

Schalke are performing better by boring their opponents into apathy... hopefully this won't be a sustainable strategy. All they are doing is being completely uninspiring and mixing concrete. Don't see a vision there, certainly not one fitting Schalke.

Both Bild and Kicker (print) are suggesting that Bosz might have two games left. I'm still wondering who will be next; it's too early in the season to appoint a youth team coach until the end of the season. I don't know who is available on the level Dortmund need (don't think Weinzierl is). Unless they're planning another recall action, bringing Tuchel back.
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby YlonenXabi » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:41 pm

The thing is that I've always set my expectations too high with some BL teams in the past (Gladbach, Leverkusen, Schalke, Wolfsburg TWICE) and except for Dortmund they've always failed to build up any success after a good season in BL

And TBH I don't see this changing. Maybe RB Leipzig will manage to keep theirselves up, but their CL season is being really disappointing too

Even if Dortmund are not getting good results now, I still see them as the 2nd best German team in the long term
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby RedQueen » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:18 pm

Can't see tweet? Click here!
He's officially gone, effective immediately. On the BVB homepage it sounds like they won't recruit an external replacement. How that will affect the BVB depends on the extent their network hinges on Mislintat - whether they can keep it or it (at least partially) leaves with him.

@YlonenXabi: Dortmund was quite mediocre between 2003 and 2010, and also between 1997 and 2000. It's not like they have been a long-term 2nd power. In their first CL season 2011/12, they finished last in their group, behind Olympiakos Piräus.
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby aterford » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:29 pm

I haven't seen any *decent* sources yet, but most of the English rags are also saying that Arsenal are keen to bring Zorc over as well....But it seems to have originated from Mirror, so wouldn't count on it too much yet.

Also worth noting is that Aubameyang's suspension has been lifted and he should be free to play vs Spurs.
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby RedQueen » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:33 pm

aterford wrote:I haven't seen any *decent* sources yet, but most of the English rags are also saying that Arsenal are keen to bring Zorc over as well....But it seems to have originated from Mirror, so wouldn't count on it too much yet.

Zorc has already denied that. I think they simply got them mixed up. Mislintat was promoted to "director of professional football" after the affair with Tuchel, and Zorc is "sporting director". My guess is they read "director of football" and mistook that for Zorc's position.
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby aterford » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:35 pm

RedQueen wrote:
aterford wrote:I haven't seen any *decent* sources yet, but most of the English rags are also saying that Arsenal are keen to bring Zorc over as well....But it seems to have originated from Mirror, so wouldn't count on it too much yet.

Zorc has already denied that. I think they simply got them mixed up. Mislintat was promoted to "director of professional football" after the affair with Tuchel, and Zorc is "sporting director". My guess is they read "director of football" and mistook that for Zorc's position.


That was kinda my thought as well. All the sources linked to SportBild - who definitely said they were interested in Mislintat, not Zorc.
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby YlonenXabi » Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:46 pm

RedQueen wrote:@YlonenXabi: Dortmund was quite mediocre between 2003 and 2010, and also between 1997 and 2000. It's not like they have been a long-term 2nd power. In their first CL season 2011/12, they finished last in their group, behind Olympiakos Piräus.


Yes, I know. I've been following BL since late 90's :P

My point is.... apart from probably RB Leipzig, do you see any other team capable of overtaking this Dortmund side?

Schalke? Leverkusen? Gladbach? None of those teams are in a good moment either. Schalke has managed to win some games, but as you said they are not doing particularly good and are likely to lose Goretzka in summer

I think only a catastrophic management could push Dortmund down the top 4 in the long term.
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby RedQueen » Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:27 pm

YlonenXabi wrote: Yes, I know. I've been following BL since late 90's :P

My point is.... apart from probably RB Leipzig, do you see any other team capable of overtaking this Dortmund side?

Schalke? Leverkusen? Gladbach? None of those teams are in a good moment either. Schalke has managed to win some games, but as you said they are not doing particularly good and are likely to lose Goretzka in summer

I think only a catastrophic management could push Dortmund down the top 4 in the long term.

Depends on what you mean by "long term" and "overtaking". I don't get where that notion of Dortmund having been a long-term established No 2 is coming from. Dortmund were No 1 and 2 for four seasons uninterrupted between 2010 and 2014. They finished out of the top 2 in two of the three seasons since then. There were periods when Werder Bremen or Gladbach had similar records. Dortmund can go downhill just like they have.

Leipzig need at least another three, maybe four transfer windows in my opinion. You just can't turn a 2nd division squad into a CL squad within two or three transfer periods if you're newly promoted and under FFP restrictions. More than half the squad are players who played in 2nd division 18 months ago, and most of the rest played in 3rd tier leagues or were somewhere on the bench. Werner, Compper and Kampl are the only ones who have at least two years experience in a top league in that squad. Them playing CL this season was never the plan. They're two or three years ahead of their own projections, and they need at least another three or four quality players, not counting replacements for Keita and possibly other key players. It looks like at least Kaiser is on the way out in the winter window, maybe Compper and Schmitz, too - maybe they can bring in another player or two in that window. Other than that it depends on what Red Bull's plans are once Mateschitz retires.

About Dortmund and the catastrophic management: They're working on it. Now Mislintat is telling Kicker that it's basically Tuchel's fault he leaves, because his spat with the latter changed the way he thinks about the BVB. So now that Tuchel is no longer there, he leaves, and Aki and Susi of course are still the good guys, they have nothing to do with it. Makes sense...
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby YlonenXabi » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:38 pm

They have far better players than the rest of the league and no other team apart from RB seems to be doing especially well either

I can't see any other club with ambition and a good project to challenge them
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby aterford » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:57 pm

YlonenXabi wrote:They have far better players than the rest of the league and no other team apart from RB seems to be doing especially well either

I can't see any other club with ambition and a good project to challenge them


That's my question, though.
Do they really have "far better" players than anyone else in the league?
Their three best (healthy) players all look to be leaving sooner than later.
Their other best player is never healthy.
They've got an aging 'core' that they've yet to really deal with (Piszczek, Castro, Schmelzer, etc)
Their recent transfers have been largely ineffective (Yarmolenko is bad, Toljan is average on his best day, Toprak is probably their 3rd best CB right now, Rode is Rode, Bosz can't use Dahoud, Isak is far from a starting level, etc)
Outside of all that? They've got Zagadou, Philipp, Guerreiro who I all rate along with Götze who's coming into form, and Sancho who shows a lot of promise....
Perhaps we could say Dortmund has the 2nd best roster in the league right now, but if they don't establish a clear plan and put it into action ASAP I don't think it's unreasonable at all to say they'll slip behind. I think they're probably going to lose a good handful of top players and a handful more will start to drop off as they age.
I think on their day RBL could argue they've got the second best squad in the league. I don't see them and Dortmund as very far apart at this point, and RBL seems to be much better organized from the top down at the moment. And while they've often disappointed, I think even teams like Leverkusen, Schalke, Gladbach all have pretty strong squads that could easily compete for 2nd if things go their way.
But at the end of the day - for me it's not so much about the teams behind Dortmund muscling their way to the top or having enough ambition to do so. If Dortmund falls out of their current 2nd place spot it'll be their own doing. For years now the signs have been there and they've done nothing about it. I think in large part, Mislintat had been able to paper over the cracks with some of his gem signings he found....now that they don't have that advantage? I'm not so sure about them anymore. Schalke, Leverkusen, Gladbach, RBL, etc may very well compete for 2nd place for the next few years and it's not even necessarily due to their own efforts - but I think we're going to see BvB take a pretty big hit, regardless of what those guys are doing.
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby PunkCapitalist » Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:00 am

YlonenXabi wrote:The thing is that I've always set my expectations too high with some BL teams in the past (Gladbach, Leverkusen, Schalke, Wolfsburg TWICE) and except for Dortmund they've always failed to build up any success after a good season in BL

And TBH I don't see this changing. Maybe RB Leipzig will manage to keep theirselves up, but their CL season is being really disappointing too

Even if Dortmund are not getting good results now, I still see them as the 2nd best German team in the long term
Honestly, it's pretty normal for growing teams to do bad at the CL for a couple of seasons. Klopp's BVB was also bad at the CL before 13.

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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby RedQueen » Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:00 am

aterford wrote:That's my question, though.
Do they really have "far better" players than anyone else in the league?
Their three best (healthy) players all look to be leaving sooner than later.

Aubameyang, Pulisic... who's your third? Weigl?
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby aterford » Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:55 am

RedQueen wrote:
aterford wrote:That's my question, though.
Do they really have "far better" players than anyone else in the league?
Their three best (healthy) players all look to be leaving sooner than later.

Aubameyang, Pulisic... who's your third? Weigl?


Yeah, Weigl. Not sure how concrete but he seems to be one of the ones with the most chatter about him recently. And that "fake love" hat didn't do him any favors with the fanbase :lol:
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby tflags » Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:44 pm

aterford wrote:Their recent transfers have been largely ineffective (Yarmolenko is bad, Toljan is average on his best day, Toprak is probably their 3rd best CB right now, Rode is Rode, Bosz can't use Dahoud, Isak is far from a starting level, etc)
Outside of all that? They've got Zagadou, Philipp, Guerreiro who I all rate along with Götze who's coming into form, and Sancho who shows a lot of promise....


Yes. For all the praise they get (starting with me) they have certainly had their transfer failures over the years. From something as recent as Mor to as far back as Bittencourt.
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