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Borussia Dortmund

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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby anasnemr » Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:52 am

PunkCapitalist wrote:
DerKaiser wrote:If there is anything Dortmund could use it is a large wad of cash in their cash reserves. Business first! let the epl drain themselves. Leichester won last season who probably had one of the lowest market value teams in their league. Mercs dont win often, too many egos , no feeling of belonging.
But I do not shun any player who will leave for there for greatly larger salaries. In one game your career can be ended.
Still it appears as if some english teams are like kids with too much pocket money in a candy store. Instead of using the massive extra money they get and have an organised financial structure, theyre just spending it.
For example one englöish team out there needs to do "a good thing for the fans" and drop ticket prices! Think of the loyality from the fans there after!

The problem is that spending on star signings increases earnings. The EPL won't be drained at all, they will probably just become more popular and richer. Look at Madrid, are they broke because of their 100m signings? No, because those increased their popularity to unthinkable levels, therefore bringing more money in from merchandizing, etc. The galacticos policy was first and foremost brilliant marketing and financial idea; even if those players didn't get Madrid many trophies (which is a much more subtle thing to analyse), they did bring them fans, and lots of them.

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Real Madrid are over 600 million euros in debt.It wasnt a brilliant financial idea.
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby DerKaiser » Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:59 am

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This is exactly what I also mean, eventually all houses made of cards will come crashing down
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby PunkCapitalist » Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:00 am

anasnemr wrote:
PunkCapitalist wrote:
DerKaiser wrote:If there is anything Dortmund could use it is a large wad of cash in their cash reserves. Business first! let the epl drain themselves. Leichester won last season who probably had one of the lowest market value teams in their league. Mercs dont win often, too many egos , no feeling of belonging.
But I do not shun any player who will leave for there for greatly larger salaries. In one game your career can be ended.
Still it appears as if some english teams are like kids with too much pocket money in a candy store. Instead of using the massive extra money they get and have an organised financial structure, theyre just spending it.
For example one englöish team out there needs to do "a good thing for the fans" and drop ticket prices! Think of the loyality from the fans there after!

The problem is that spending on star signings increases earnings. The EPL won't be drained at all, they will probably just become more popular and richer. Look at Madrid, are they broke because of their 100m signings? No, because those increased their popularity to unthinkable levels, therefore bringing more money in from merchandizing, etc. The galacticos policy was first and foremost brilliant marketing and financial idea; even if those players didn't get Madrid many trophies (which is a much more subtle thing to analyse), they did bring them fans, and lots of them.

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Real Madrid are over 600 million euros in debt.It wasnt a brilliant financial idea.

Has that ever kept them from continuing their policy? Like it or not, Madrid's debt has so far proven to be sustainable. But, in any case, debt won't be a problem in England, because the TV deal is just so absolutely out of this world that they won't have to resort to debt in order to crush every other league.

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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby anasnemr » Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:16 am

true i dont think bpl teams will have any money problems their ticket prices and tv deals are just too high for them to be debt.
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby endrity » Wed Jun 08, 2016 8:45 am

Unfortunately there is a lot of myths around debt and financial stability in the German football media.

Almost any business has some type of debt and there are good economic reasons to have some if you can manage it, mainly consumption smoothing, i.e keeping your overall expenditure similar while you invest in future growth instead of relying on too much belt-tightening in the short run. While there are examples of football clubs going broke because of debt, there are a lot more examples of clubs managing their debt well and achieving on and off the field success with it. Real of course being the prime example. I say this because of the hatred that the Buli shows towards outside investors. Has it done the EPL any disfavours? No it hasn't. The arrival of Chelsea and City on the grand stage has lifted the whole competition. While it's a bit harder for other teams to win trophies, Arsenal, Liverpool and Tottenham have been able to afford world class players and build/expand world class stadiums because of the cashflow that the league is attracting.

The Bundesliga would be in a much better position if Stuttgart, Hamburg and Berlin, big teams from big cities, would be able to consistently compete for the top places in the league.

As for Dortmund, they are in a bit of a tough position. I have long thought that their policy of not selling players until the last year was starting to have some massive disadvantages for them because it didn't allow them to attract the crazy fees that are going around. I understand that you can't grow as a club if you show that you sell your players, but if it's only for crazy amounts than it might be somewhat more acceptable. However, selling 3 top players in one window is tough and replacing it with only young, unproven players gives the idea of a stepping-stone club, and not of a top club.

I think PEA is not a world-class player though, he is good but not great. He misses far too many chances and he doesn't create much on his own. His movement though has become class. If they get an outrageous amount for him, maybe sell him and get someone like Morata for half the fee and then go and get Dahoud, Tah/Sule and BVB would be showing some intent. It's really important for them to challenge again next year if they are to show to players and sponsors that they remain a top club on the field as well.
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby bbenno » Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:04 am

Man Shitty might be offering a huge fee for PEA, but if I remember correctly Lewi needed a couple of seasons at Dortmund to show his potential, Immobile failed, Ramos did not really deliver, PEA also needed a couple of seasons. So it might not be so easy just to replace him with a guy like Morata, although Morata is on already showed his potential. But don't forget Reus and PEA seem to be good friends, and I heard something of a gentlemen's agreement among the two about both staying because of the other. Furthermore, they will lose out brand wise, as players will doubt the clubs ambitions, when they are selling ALL their stars in one window.
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby endrity » Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:08 am

I'd say Morata is more ready than any of the previous strikers were to fill in the void left by PEA leaving. As I said, I consider him good but not great. His goalscoaring is more of a product of the team play rather than his own brilliance.

But I agree on the whole brand thing, it's what big clubs try to promote all the time and Dortmund doesn't want to fall in the trap of being seen as a lightweight.
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby MUTU » Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:15 am

PEA would be really silly to play for the top club in the fastest league in the world. What would suit him best is some club against which teams don't defend so deeply and where football is generally slower. If I were him and just have to move, I'd prefer to go for a club like Atletico Madrid where he'd be able to fully utilise his greatest weapon, his speed.
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby endrity » Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:21 am

MUTU wrote:PEA would be really silly to play for the top club in the fastest league in the world. What would suit him best is some club against which teams don't defend so deeply and where football is generally slower. If I were him and just have to move, I'd prefer to go for a club like Atletico Madrid where he'd be able to fully utilise his greatest weapon, his speed.


But Atletico play such deep defense only against the "elite" teams. Simeone has actually been very good at installing tactical variation in their play, even against Madrid they have times where they press really high up the pitch and try to take the game to them. I think PEA's main problem at Atletico, setting aside the finances, would be that he isn't too much of "fighter" like Simeone wants his players to be. It's what seemed to block his development somewhat under Klopp as well.

But I agree that if Pep plays a typical possession game, than PEA would not excel much at City. In a way his desire is correct, Real and probably current Barca would fit him well. They are always looking for vertical movement from their strikers. I don't know that the rest of his game would make him a starter there though. Anyway, this went a bit off topic I guess.
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby quaazi » Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:27 am

endrity wrote:Unfortunately there is a lot of myths around debt and financial stability in the German football media.

Almost any business has some type of debt and there are good economic reasons to have some if you can manage it, mainly consumption smoothing, i.e keeping your overall expenditure similar while you invest in future growth instead of relying on too much belt-tightening in the short run.

Yeah see this only works in economic models where investing in future growth has clear and tangible consequences. In football, you can just as easily blow a 50 million investment as you can grow it. Considering that football clubs are in actuality quite poor when compared to top dogs in actual markets (Bayern, the biggest "firm" in the biggest European economy, has a pathetic revenue of 474 million euros, roughly around 45 times smaller than the poorest company in the latest Fortune 500 list), the traditional view of debt is quite out of place in this field.
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby quaazi » Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:27 am

That's not mentioning that infrastructure developments are really, really far off - building a new factory is hella different to building a new youth academy.
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby MUTU » Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:32 am

quaazi wrote:That's not mentioning that infrastructure developments are really, really far off - building a new factory is hella different to building a new youth academy.

This. In football the risks in investments are considerably larger than in other industries. If you buy a new machine that will increase production in a factory by 20%, there's a risk that you won't be able to sell 20% more, but you can plan for it. In football it's different, you can spend money to buy an expensive player and he completely flops. Or a referee mistake sends you crashing out a tournament you were banking on for revenue.
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby endrity » Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:56 am

There are risks in every business though, you might invest in a enhancing capacity for your product while a new product come in the market and replaces it, etc.

The fact of the matter is that there are plenty of football clubs that survive quite well even with debt and very few collapse, probably less so than traditional businesses.
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby DerKaiser » Wed Jun 08, 2016 12:04 pm

Real Madrid´s philosophy : The "too big to fail" theory asserts that certain corporations, and particularly financial institutions, are so large and so interconnected that their failure would be disastrous to the greater economic system, and that they therefore must be supported by government when they face potential failure.
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby DerKaiser » Wed Jun 08, 2016 12:10 pm

for me it simply comes to down to the bottom line, firstly dortmund and bayern must pay similar salaries to those being earned at top clubs elsewhere, then other BL teams must get up there. The alternative is of course: finding those gems. Besides all the big name players there are a ton of very good potential wc players out there, the overall level of athletes in this sport has exponantially increased. Sometimes its luck on the field that makes a click sometimes its just the opportunity. That said, one can easily have a very good squad if one has a keen eye and luck.
Ragnik has proven this as have others.

Dortmund needs to start with 5 year deals and zero buy out clause. and they should get max eberle :wink:
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