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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby Bazi » Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:17 pm

Borusse wrote:But those wages are gross man! Watzke clearly said our wages budget was around 45 million euros and its gonna increase to 68 million! The graphic clearly shows our wages are 79.9, so that MUST mean its gross!

So Im right because our wages budget was 45 million euros NET. Therefore Hummels earns 3,8 million euros NET. Thank you very much. :wink:



Sorry Borusse. You've clearly no idea what you're talking about and don't understand how taxation works. Please ask some Borussia Dortmund fans because you're speaking nonsense.

Watzke's € 45m was not true or at least only partially true because those numbers didn't include bonuses. Uli Hoeneß pointed at that hypocrisy back then. The graphic I posted is from a source which investigates the accounting and published numbers of football clubs. Those numbers are 100% accurate including all bonuses.

The club logically always pays the wage in gross numbers, the player pays the tax and receives 55% of his gross income in net.

Borussia Dortmund paid € 79m to their players in 2011/12 including all bonuses. Please think about it. If Hummels were to earn 7.5m + 0.5-1m bonuses this would mean Mats Hummels alone earns almost 15% of the entire Borussia Dortmund wage bill...
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby Achilles » Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:25 pm

Juve signed Tevez for...12m
And BVB with a load of money can't make things happen...

It seems that BVB are looking for already world class players maybe? I can't get it... DeBruyne is out there waiting,I'm sure he wants BVB more than Chelsea,Mhkitaryan bid failed,Eriksen said "I'm ready to leave,I like Dortmund" Dzeko everytime he is talking for BuLi he has a big smile and good memories.Old BVB would sign Son in 2minutes with that talent.So many targets but no bullets from BVB,is early though for some good transfers but they have to move quick if they want to be tough competitors for 3 competitions,this year everyone could see that BVB's depth was crap,they keep loosing fundamental players but they don't make a move to replace them properly and on top of that no depth signings(only Sokratis but he will play for a couple of months instead of Pisczek)

*Even Olympiacos Piraeus signed Vladmir Weiss as free agent :P
Mia san mia
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby Borusse » Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:25 pm

I was never great at accounting and all that but first time I hear about including bonuses and so on.

Besides please tell me how did you get 15% from Hummels's 8,5 mio (Im including those bonuses just for you). You say those 79 million euros which are on the chart give us all the wages of players + bonuses. Therefore if Hummels earns 8,5 mio gross (according to my belief) when you make a simple equastion you get that 8,5 mio from 79,9 mio is 11 %, not 15%. And its all correct because Hummels is the second top earner at the club! (now first because Gotze left).

This just doesnt add up man. You may know more than I do but I dont feel like you're right. When I give you an argument you say Watzke wasnt 100% truthfull, lol.
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby Bazi » Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:31 pm

Borusse wrote:I was never great at accounting and all that but first time I hear about including bonuses and so on.

Besides please tell me how did you get 15% from Hummels's 8,5 mio (Im including those bonuses just for you). You say those 79 million euros which are on the chart give us all the wages of players + bonuses. Therefore if Hummels earns 8,5 mio gross (according to my belief) when you make a simple equastion you get that 8,5 mio from 79,9 mio is 11 %, not 15%. And its all correct because Hummels is the second top earner at the club! (now first because Gotze left).


Sure 8.5 of € 79m is not almost 15% but I was trying to make a point and exaggerated a little on purpose because your calculation just doesn't add up. 11% for one player, you must realize that this is not possible on Dortmund's wage bill.

You see Borusse, you can't pay wages net because the players pay the tax and not Borussia Dortmund. This means when you read that Borussia
Dortmund paid X amount of wages then it's always the total amount of all gross wages plus bonuses.

Even clearer, Borussia Dortmund can't possibly pay € 13m to Mesut Özil because that's what they needed to do for him to earn € 7m net. Don't you understand that?

. Even if they were able to increase their wage bill to € 100m or € 120m

I understand your confusion because Watzke likes to exclude the amount of bonuses paid, because it makes Borussia Dortmund look better compared to Bayern München.
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby Borusse » Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:43 pm

Bazi wrote:Sure 8.5 of € 79m is not almost 15% but I was trying to make a point and exaggerated a little on purpose because your calculation just doesn't add up. 11% for one player, you must realize that this is not possible on Dortmund's wage bill.

You see Borusse, you can't pay wages net because the players pay the tax and not Borussia Dortmund. This means when you read that Borussia
Dortmund paid X amount of wages then it's always the total amount of all gross wages plus bonuses.

Even clearer, Borussia Dortmund can't possibly pay € 13m to Mesut Özil. Even if they were able to increase their wage bill to € 100m or € 120m

I understand your confusion because Watzke likes to exclude the amount of bonuses paid, because it makes Borussia Dortmund look better compared to Bayern München.


Sorry man, yours doesnt add up. Ozil was brought to Real from Werder Bremen. How is it possible they offered him 5 million euros net, he didnt extend his contract since he got to Real. Look at Isco, he is a Spaniard who was named the biggest talent of the year 2012 and he got 3 million euros net. That is very strange dont you think? Im trying to show you that its impossible there is such a big difference between wages in Spain and in Germany. Ozil is getting 5 million euros net and Hummels is getting 2 million euros net? I dont think so man. Your chart is saying the whole truth.

Our wages were 45 mio net, therefore 79.9 gross therefore Hummels makes 3,8 mio net. And Im pretty sure I read about it when Hummels extended his contract a year ago.
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby Bazi » Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:46 pm

Borusse wrote:
Bazi wrote:Sure 8.5 of € 79m is not almost 15% but I was trying to make a point and exaggerated a little on purpose because your calculation just doesn't add up. 11% for one player, you must realize that this is not possible on Dortmund's wage bill.

You see Borusse, you can't pay wages net because the players pay the tax and not Borussia Dortmund. This means when you read that Borussia
Dortmund paid X amount of wages then it's always the total amount of all gross wages plus bonuses.

Even clearer, Borussia Dortmund can't possibly pay € 13m to Mesut Özil. Even if they were able to increase their wage bill to € 100m or € 120m

I understand your confusion because Watzke likes to exclude the amount of bonuses paid, because it makes Borussia Dortmund look better compared to Bayern München.


Sorry man, yours doesnt add up. Ozil was brought to Real from Werder Bremen. How is it possible they offered him 5 million euros net, he didnt extend his contract since he got to Real. Look at Isco, he is a Spaniard who was named the biggest talent of the year 2012 and he got 3 million euros net. That is very strange dont you think? Im trying to show you thats impossible there is such a big difference between wages in Spain and in Germany. Ozil is getting 5 million euros net and Hummels is getting 2 million euros net? I dont think so man.



My numbers for Borussia Dortmund add up perfectly aside from my little exaggeration to make a point.

The thing is Özil doesn't earn € 5m net but gross and he wants the contract extension which guarantees him € 7m net or almost € 13m gross, because now he is an international star and deserves more money.

That's what Bild wrote in their article I linked. You just assumed the €5m were net but it's not the case because salaries are usually stated in gross in Germany unless of course additional information states net. Who'd pay a 20 year old nobody € 5m net on his first contract? Nobody, not even Real Madrid.

The difference in salary may not be fair quality wise but this is the reason why players want to leave Borussia Dortmund for Real Madrid, Manchester United and Bayern München. Dortmund just doesn't pay good enough because they don't have the financial means.
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby Borusse » Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:56 pm

Bazi wrote:My numbers for Borussia Dortmund add up perfectly aside from my little exaggeration to make a point.

The thing is Özil doesn't earn € 5m net but gross and he wants the contract extension which guarantees him € 7m net or almost € 13m gross, because now he is an international star and deserves more money.

That's what Bild wrote in their article I linked. You just assumed the €5m were net but it's not the case because salaries are usually stated in gross in Germany unless of course additional information states net. Who'd pay a 20 year old nobody € 5m net on his first contract? Nobody, not even Real Madrid.

The difference in salary may not be fair quality wise but this is the reason why players want to leave Borussia Dortmund for Real Madrid, Manchester United and Bayern München. Dortmund just doesn't pay good enough because they don't have the financial means.


Ok, therefore we can all agree Bild's information is bullshit. :wink: Ozil definitely wants a raise, but from 5 to 13 gross? Spanish media didnt say anything about that, at least it wasnt translated into polish on realmadrid.pl, very big Real Madrid site. Spanish media said he wants a raise, nothing more.

If you are so so sure both Ozil 5 mio and Hummels 3,8 mio are gross then it is definitely not impossible for us to sign him. I said earlier the only way for us to sign Ozil is if the player wants it himself. If he wants to go back to Germany he will only get a minimum raise in Dortmund but that is the price of coming back to Germany. We would be able to give Ozil 6-7 mio gross and he might get more money playing in Germany from marketing, commercials. It still wont be 13 mio he supossedly wants to earn in Real but definitely not bad.

Oh, and Bild is not a reliable source man, you should have learned that years ago. Ask fans in Germany what they think about that newspaper. They have great connections in Bayern but thats about it. Many of their articles is just pure speculation.

So Gomez earns 10 mio gross yes?
Last edited by Borusse on Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby Bazi » Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:07 pm

Borusse wrote:Ok, therefore we can all agree Bild's information is bullshit. :wink: Ozil definitely wants a raise, but from 5 to 13 gross? Spanish media didnt say anything about that, at least it wasnt translated into polish on realmadrid.pl, very big Real Madrid site. Spanish media said he wants a raise, nothing more.

If you are so so sure both Ozil 5 mio and Hummels 3,8 mio are gross then it is definitely not impossible for us to sign him. I said earlier the only way for us to sign Ozil is if the player wants it himself. If he wants to go back to Germany he will only gate a minimum raise in Dortmund but that is the price of coming back to Germany. We would be able to give Ozil 6-7 mio gross and he might get more money playing in Germany from marketing, commercials. It still wont be 13 mio he supossedly wants to earn in Real but still.



Whether or not Özil will get those € 13m is another question. I think they will meet somewhere in the middle.

But those raises are quite normal. If Bayern München signs a top player or major talent for a transfer fee then he gets a salary of € 3-7m gross on his first contract. As soon as he signs an extension after 2-3 years and he met the expectations as a world class player he gets a raise. Usually around € 8.5 to € 10.5m.

Now Mesut Özil got € 5m as his rookie contract coming from Werder Bremen on a transfer fee and now he wants a major raise because he's an established top class player. Considering that Real Madrid pays their players even more money than Bayern their highest wages are even bigger than ours. So € 13m is a salary Real Madrid's most important top players can earn. Now again, this is all a poker for money so maybe he'll end up getting € 10-11m. It's all negotiations tactics.
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby Borusse » Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:10 pm

If! he really wants a raise and that is what he is dicussing with Real. For all we know he might be negotiating the move to Dortmund and media are just speculating he wants more money on his contract. :D

Anyway, you scared me earlier because I thought Ozil was earning 5 mio net which would be impossible. Too much of a difference.

Nice talking to you as always though. :wink:
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby Bomber_der_Nation » Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:53 pm

Borusse, are you like 12 or something?
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby Borusse » Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:54 pm

Yes, net.
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby Bomber_der_Nation » Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:55 pm

Way too lazy to explain everything to you, but dude, you have no feeling for numbers whatsoever, you clearly don't understand what taxes are and how they work and you've made it very clear that you don't understand the difference between gross and net.
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby Borusse » Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:58 pm



What do you expect? Im just a regular Dortmund fan, we are all idiots! #-o
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby Bomber_der_Nation » Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:01 pm

10?
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Re: Borussia Dortmund

Postby Borusse » Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:02 pm

Its actually 8, three years older than BayernLove.
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