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The German Question

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Re: The German Question

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:51 am

Jorge wrote:I go back to a basic question that I asked a few times in this discussion: it seems to me that Thiago is judged by the good things he would have done (if he wasn't injured, if he would have played the world cup, if he would have won the Champions League, if he was played as a regista, and so on) but the others (Gotze, Kroos) are judged by their shortcomings while they did it.


To focus on Kroos alone and go back to the topic question, I think with Kroos (unlike Götze) this lack of appreciation may be related to bitterness. He was appreciated by most here back when he played for us, if I remember correctly. I refused to believe he was leaving until it was made official. Since then, we have managed perfectly well without him so that + leaving us for RM means we forgot about him. I don't think the issue is that some Germans are treated worse than other players but rather that we get more pissed off when the players who leave us are German. Think Ballack, Hummels...




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Re: The German Question

Postby tflags » Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:47 pm

Jorge wrote:Going back to your original statement everything is relative. True that Gotze in 2014 was overpaid at 12M per year compared to Thiago's 8M but on the same token Toni Kroos, a German with a history in the club, more important than Thiago for Bayern, a bigger international name was still paid half of Thiago's wages.

What happened in the 3 years that followed proved your point in Thiago versus Gotze, it does not versus Kroos. Kroos continuous to be a better player than Thiago and Kroos, still a german had been critized in the forum as bad a Thiago, being a Bayern player and even after he left.


I've never accused the team/club of being biased. I've more than clear that this thread is a member issue, not a team one.

I think the team is run by German ex-PLAYERS. As such, I've noticed they notice talent, not colors. That is simply fact, not an opinion. But on this thread that if off topic.

I'm on the run so I can't comment properly other than saying that I wrote a post some two months ago where Thiago put Kroos contribution to shame (South American exaggeraion included) based on facts (statistics.) And that was even before we got his highest rating before Red Bull and Arsenal; his more important games.

I'll look for the post later today and update it.
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Re: The German Question

Postby PunkCapitalist » Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:02 pm

tflags wrote:
Jorge wrote:Going back to your original statement everything is relative. True that Gotze in 2014 was overpaid at 12M per year compared to Thiago's 8M but on the same token Toni Kroos, a German with a history in the club, more important than Thiago for Bayern, a bigger international name was still paid half of Thiago's wages.

What happened in the 3 years that followed proved your point in Thiago versus Gotze, it does not versus Kroos. Kroos continuous to be a better player than Thiago and Kroos, still a german had been critized in the forum as bad a Thiago, being a Bayern player and even after he left.


I've never accused the team/club of being biased. I've more than clear that this thread is a member issue, not a team one.

I think the team is run by German ex-PLAYERS. As such, I've noticed they notice talent, not colors. That is simply fact, not an opinion. But on this thread that if off topic.

I'm on the run so I can't comment properly other than saying that I wrote a post some two months ago where Thiago put Kroos contribution to shame (South American exaggeraion included) based on facts (statistics.) And that was even before we got his highest rating before Red Bull and Arsenal; his more important games.

I'll look for the post later today and update it.

I remember that post. It was fantastic. Looking forward to your updates.

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Re: The German Question

Postby Jorge » Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:42 am

FCBayernMunchen wrote:Well sure, but he was nowhere near the most important player for the world cup win. Actually, he almost cost Germany the final.


Are you sure, let's look at some facts:

1) Kroos ranked No.1 in the Castrol Index with 9.79
2014 World Cup Castrol Index [source]

2) Kroos was named in the Best XI of the tournament (All Star Team)
3) Kroos led the competition with most assists (tied with Juan Cuadrado)
4) Kroos was named in the Best XI in 2014 for UEFA Team of the Year: 2014, FIFA/FIFPro World XI and was awarded the IFFHS World's Best Playmaker.

I think "nowhere near" is a little bit off.

FCBayernMunchen wrote:Same with his first CL trophy with us, in which he didn't feature in the most important games and his replacement scored the title winner.


In the 2012-13 CL campaign Kroos playing in front of Bastian and Thiago was having outstanding performances including a MOTM performance at Valencia but got injured for the rest of the season in the first leg of the QF against Valencia. You can't judge him for the games that he missed but if what followed was an indicator of what he would have done Kroos was named in the Best XI in all 3 CL seasons thereafter: 2013–14, 2014–15,2015–16.

FCBayernMunchen wrote:With Real he is better, but from the admittedly limited times I've watched him, he's not as influential as an in-form Thiago is.


Kroos in 3 seasons has featured in a 130 games, or 40+ games per season, just this number makes him influential and in-form beyond anyone's personal opinion, and when it comes to those who do watch Real Madrid: he is Madrid's reference on the field. Let's be fair to Thiago who has struggled with injuries and not bring up his numbers.

FCBayernMunchen wrote:Titles aren't everything. For example, I believe that Thiago missing the Real Madrid tie was a big advantage for them in 2014. Sometimes, absence is more noteworthy.


I doubt Thiago would have changed the outcome of that game: it was a spanking with Bayern dismantled from the tactical point of view.

FCBayernMunchen wrote:I won't go into the value because there is no way whatsoever that anyone will ever sell Thiago for 30m. :P


Based on quality and looking at "comparables" I agree, in my opinion around 45M, but based on what he has accomplished being injury prone 30M is not too far off at the moment.
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Re: The German Question

Postby tflags » Thu Feb 23, 2017 12:12 pm

Anyhow I'm not sure how to follow Castrol's ranking. They seem to be targeted more as a tournament sponsorship thing more than a real serious calculation given their methods. Like I said before, I simply can't trust a system where Gomez ranked higher than Messi for example. But anyhow whatever weight they gave to Kroos' performance, none is saying Kroos is a poor player.

Quite on the contrary, he certainly can pass. Question is, how good is he? Here's the previous post I mentioned as comparison to Thiago. This was posted on the December break.

tflags wrote:Guys, lets stop feeding the trolls. There are some people who would rather cheer for the guys on the bench instead of those getting the results so just ignore them.

Anyhow Kicker magazine just announced Kroos is the most valuable German player of the year. It is quite interesting as their numbers can hardly keep up.

Kroos has an amazing number of passes and a mind boggling number of them are on target; 902 with 92% being successful.
Thiago, however, achieved around 53% more (damn!) keeping up to par with precision at 90.2%.

Keep in mind Thiago has some numbers behind him. He's played 1280 mins vs 1044 for the German.
The thing is, this brings Kroos at around .9 passes per minute whereas Thiago ranks in at 1.1 passes/min.

So let's cut to the chase. Kroos is the midfield maestro of assists. He's got 13 assists so far this year vs Thiago's 3. It is safe to say, Kroos rules here. On goals, however, he's got only 1 vs Thiago's 3. Points total: 14 vs 6. Kroos ahead.

But the rest of the stats start to show why Kroos can hardly compare to Spain's #10. Kroos brought an amazing 101 challenges with 62 being successful. That is, painfully, scarcely 1/3 of Thiago's at 296 (damn damn! -Doc Brown) with 61% being successful. There's no challenge here...

Tackles, what is tackles?. It is amazing Pep doesn't know what the word ' Tackles' means considering his former protege brought 340 tackles with 59.1% being successful. La liga's page says Toni has brought only 38 with 28.9% being successful. We need to check these numbers as they don't seem right.

What is confirmed though is that ' White Man Can't Jump' indeed. Kroos had 7 aerial challenges vs Thiago's 44. Toni got 42% right, Thiago 48%.

Someone said in this forum before Kroos is better because 'he can shoot'. They should check their stats. URGENTLY. Toni had a total of 12 attempts on goal. Thiago had indeed almost double, at 20. I couldn't get Thiago's success rate but Toni was exactly 50% on target.

Yeah, Thiago needs to improve his game. :lol:
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Re: The German Question

Postby tflags » Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:04 pm

Here's the update as of today. Stats are for Bundesliga matches ONLY.

Playing time, Kroos has 1524" with 18 statups vs Thiago 1460" under 17 starts.

Goals:
Kroos: 1 goal. Assists: 9 (Damn the guy is an Assist King). Points total: 10.
Thiago: 3 goals Assists: 3 . Points total: 6.

Challenges:
Kroos: 158 w/ 39% success
Thiago: 399 w/60% success (There's no challenge!)

Of the figure above, 146 were on the ground for Kroos (61% rate) and 6 on the air (50% rate).
For Thiago, 343 were on the ground (61.2% rate) and 56 on the air (51.8%). (White men can't jump.)

Shots!
Kroos: 14 total. 7 on target.
Thiago: 55 Shots on Goal. 24 on target. (seems like white men can't shoot either! :P )

Dribbles:
26 total for Kroos w/84% successful.
Thiago: 52 total w/65% successful. (Damn!)

Pass the salt please:
Kroos: 1196 w/92% success
Thiago: 1555 w/90.4% success (B!tch please)

Interceptions Per game:

Kroos: 1.2
Thiago: 4.2
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Re: The German Question

Postby MUTU » Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:53 pm

tflags wrote:I simply can't trust a system where Gomez ranked higher than Messi for example

Why not? 8) Seems legit to me.
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Re: The German Question

Postby MUTU » Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:05 pm

tflags wrote:Shots!
Kroos: 14 total. 7 on target.
Thiago: 55 Shots on Goal. 24 on target. (seems like white men can't shoot either! :P )

Just wanted to point out that this is missing an accuracy percentage. 50% for Kroos, 44% for Thiago.
Also if you combine it with the goals factor you get that Kroos scored 7.14% of shot attempts, whereas Thiago scored 5.45% of shot attempts.

tflags wrote:Dribbles:
26 total for Kroos w/84% successful.
Thiago: 52 total w/65% successful. (Damn!)

Wait. How is that a win for Thiago? Kroos has 22 successful dribbles while Thiago has 33. However, Kroos had an unsuccessful dribble 4 times this season while Thiago had 18 unsuccessful dribbles. That's 4.5x more balls lost to failed dribble attempts for Thiago. How do you claim his dribbling is better?

tflags wrote:Pass the salt please:
Kroos: 1196 w/92% success
Thiago: 1555 w/90.4% success (B!tch please)

Same here, I prefer Kroos' stats.
Kroos failed passes: 96
Thiago failed passes: 149.

So Thiago passes to the opposition 1.5x more often than Kroos.

tflags wrote:Interceptions Per game:

Kroos: 1.2
Thiago: 4.2

Trumping victory here.
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Re: The German Question

Postby Thiagoalcantara » Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:04 pm

OMG MUTU doesnt know what dribbling is..

If he cannot see Kroos v thiago and the huge difference in dribbling

Comparing la liga stats v bundesliga stats is also bad imo, since la liga is a lot superior competition than bundesliga... Also, they both have different roles on the team and different players besides them
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Re: The German Question

Postby MUTU » Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:14 pm

Thiagoalcantara wrote:OMG MUTU doesnt know what dribbling is..

If he cannot see Kroos v thiago and the huge difference in dribbling

Stop this troll talk. I'm simply pointing out that for me the success rate is more important than the number of attempts.

For example, if one player tries 2 dribbles in a game and is successful in both, I would prefer him to the one who tries 10 dribbles and is successful in 3.
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Re: The German Question

Postby Thiagoalcantara » Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:19 pm

MUTU wrote:
Thiagoalcantara wrote:OMG MUTU doesnt know what dribbling is..

If he cannot see Kroos v thiago and the huge difference in dribbling

Stop this troll talk. I'm simply pointing out that for me the success rate is more important than the number of attempts.

For example, if one player tries 2 dribbles in a game and is successful in both, I would prefer him to the one who tries 10 dribbles and is successful in 3.


and yet u claim cr7 to be a good goal scorer.

Different roles in different leagues with different players. Casimero also has a higher rate too, but we all know casimero aint no ronaldinho.

Also, look at Kroos stats when he was playing n10 for bayern and see his dribbling rate
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Re: The German Question

Postby aterford » Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:09 am

MUTU wrote:
tflags wrote:Shots!
Kroos: 14 total. 7 on target.
Thiago: 55 Shots on Goal. 24 on target. (seems like white men can't shoot either! :P )

Just wanted to point out that this is missing an accuracy percentage. 50% for Kroos, 44% for Thiago.
Also if you combine it with the goals factor you get that Kroos scored 7.14% of shot attempts, whereas Thiago scored 5.45% of shot attempts.


Okay, hold up. First, the difference here is so minute that I wouldn't really feel comfortable calling it a 'win' for either. That being said, I would consider the one who takes more shots and forces more saves infinitely more useful. Forces defense to keep more honest, creates more chances for rebounds, second chance shots, etc.

MUTU wrote:
tflags wrote:Dribbles:
26 total for Kroos w/84% successful.
Thiago: 52 total w/65% successful. (Damn!)

Wait. How is that a win for Thiago? Kroos has 22 successful dribbles while Thiago has 33. However, Kroos had an unsuccessful dribble 4 times this season while Thiago had 18 unsuccessful dribbles. That's 4.5x more balls lost to failed dribble attempts for Thiago. How do you claim his dribbling is better?


Not a like for like comparison. Watch footage of both of the two. Thiago tends to take on dribbles in more advanced positions on the pitch, i.e. where there are more defenders to deal with. Kroos tends to take 'safer' dribbles. Again, it's not necessarily as black and white as "well he lost the ball more often so he's not better". As with shooting, taking more dribbles forces the defense to adapt more to your play than a more conservative approach.
In any case even if you disregards the stats entirely you'd have to have some seriously German-tinted glasses on to watch the two play and EVER think Kroos was a better dribbler.

MUTU wrote:
tflags wrote:Pass the salt please:
Kroos: 1196 w/92% success
Thiago: 1555 w/90.4% success (B!tch please)

Same here, I prefer Kroos' stats.
Kroos failed passes: 96
Thiago failed passes: 149.

So Thiago passes to the opposition 1.5x more often than Kroos.


Again: simply saying Thiago has given the ball away more is reductionist and overly simplistic. If you look at the stats, while Thiago has given away the ball more, Kroos has had more inaccurate passes committed, both long and short. Thiago has also been more accurate on corner and set piece deliveries.


Might also be worth pointing out that while Kroos has more assists, per game it's not quite so different - 0.5 for Thiago, 0.7 for Kroos.
In addition to interceptions, Thiago also gets dribbled past less than Kroos per game and averages more tackles per game (Kroos 50% success, Thiago 82%). Thiago less cautions/cards as well. Etc etc etc.
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Re: The German Question

Postby tflags » Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:16 am

MUTU wrote:Stop this troll talk. I'm simply pointing out that for me the success rate is more important than the number of attempts.


MUTU wrote:Very good, but pass accuracy is overrated because some passes are much easier than others ...


:P
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Re: The German Question

Postby tflags » Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:01 pm

MUTU wrote:
tflags wrote:Dribbles:
26 total for Kroos w/84% successful.
Thiago: 52 total w/65% successful. (Damn!)

Wait. How is that a win for Thiago? Kroos has 22 successful dribbles while Thiago has 33. However, Kroos had an unsuccessful dribble 4 times this season while Thiago had 18 unsuccessful dribbles. That's 4.5x more balls lost to failed dribble attempts for Thiago. How do you claim his dribbling is better?


I don't wish to enter into an argument on data as you can read things in many ways but I needed to correct this number as I had a hard time finding Thiago's dribbling data. My sources for the info on this thread was the official pages for Bundesliga and La Liga except for dribbles which I needed to use both whoscored and transfermrkt. Anyhow the correct data on what you pointed out before is the following:

Thiago Successful dribbles, Bundesliga only, on 1460 mins of pitch time, is 36 from a total of 55 which is 0.024 successful dribbles per min.
Kroos La Liga dribbles is 22 from 26. This boils down to 0.014 successful dribbles per min. (Bold letters go to Thiago!)

Passes: Thiago's numbers come to 1,405 landed passes. Kroos weights in at 1,100. Not only is Thiago more active on the pitch, he has 27% more successful passes over less time on the pitch. That is 0.96 successful passes per minutes for Thiago, 0.72 successful passes per minute for Kroos.

While looking at these numbers, I'm afraid to say, Kroos sucks against Thiago while moving the ball around. Sorry guys.

Finally, both players are not really comparable head to head anymore. Not from a League perspective but from a positional point of view. Fortunatelly, whoscored is kind enough to provide some clues as their ratings are based on position on the pitch as well. Here's a head to head from their different positions:

As central midfielders, all things considered (again, 200 variables and all) Kroos gets a 7.68 rating. Thiagol (sorry, ESPN called him that vs Arsenal) 7.85.
As an advanced midfielder, Kroos has no rating. Thiago got 8.9. Thiago's numbers are hard to compete against as there's no advanced centre midfielder with better ratings in all of Europe.

But... But... But... Kroos is a better Defensive dude. BULLOCKS! Kroos rating as DM? 7.95; one of Europe's best mind you. Are they the best? Unfortunately no, as Thiago comes in at 8.35. Back to you b!tches.
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Re: The German Question

Postby Dumbledore7 » Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:15 pm

Literally what the hell have the last couple of posts been. You're comparing Alonso to Iniesta.
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