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Schickeria — are they right or wrong?

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What do you think about Schickeria's actions?

Poll ended at Sun Apr 17, 2011 5:08 pm

They are right
1
7%
I am unsure
0
No votes
They are wrong
14
93%
 
Total votes : 15

Re: Schickeria — are they right or wrong?

Postby munichfan » Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:03 am

quaazi wrote:
munichfan wrote:Perhaps, those fans in the Allianz Arena who only attend one match in a lifetime and those who discuss Bayern Munich on internet forums would not be able to understand the background the supporters' decision to protest.

If this is not a jab at us not being able to attend the games then I don't know what is.



It may sound harsh, but it's true. You have to be there to understand many of the things fully. The fact that many didn't know the background behind the protests is just proof of that! It's not a jab, it's just simply stating the facts. When I was living abroad, I didn't know a lot either.
Last edited by munichfan on Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Schickeria — are they right or wrong?

Postby hgb09 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 12:28 pm

U're wrong because I read all ur posts and I found them really interesting and many of ur points make sense. However, u don't have the right to say that we don't deserve to be fans. That's my point.
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Re: Schickeria — are they right or wrong?

Postby munichfan » Sun Sep 04, 2011 12:53 pm

Bru, I never said you don't deserve to be fans. I never even implied it. In fact, I made it clear that everyone is just as deserving, if you look at the recent posts.

That's simply something Quaazi suggested.
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Re: Schickeria — are they right or wrong?

Postby quaazi » Sun Sep 04, 2011 1:53 pm

Come on, sure you implied it, even if you can't realize you're doing it. Re-read your posts. They reek of arrogant "you do not understand how being a real fan is" implications, full of hidden jabs against us being mere internet fans:
Next time you go to a match and have a look at the people around you, if you don't happen to be one of them.
Perhaps, those fans in the Allianz Arena who only attend one match in a lifetime and those who discuss Bayern Munich on internet forums would not be able to understand the background the supporters' decision to protest.
It is difficult to explain the supporters scene over an internet platform
Why would you write about the issue in this forum, without having informed yourself properly about both sides beforehand?
Perhaps if you had researched their ideologies and the ultrà mentality
Schickeria is and will remain the only group of active fans that support their team 90 minutes a game, every single game of the year.


And you even agreed with that when I said so.
you value the ultra and their opinions more than those of non-ultras, and I do not agree with that.
my opinion, which you correctly identified


I honestly don't know why you would promote a fun project like this and schizophrenically inject barbs about our inferiority as fans. It's much like a medieval crusader, who displays contempt to those who he thinks are his inferiors, then tries to convert them.

That's the question here, isn't it? You aren't really trying to have us better understand the club, but the fan clubs instead. I personally root for FC Bayern München, not Schickeria.

I wouldn't even be bothered by this if it weren't for your constant assertion that the fan clubs are right to disown Neuer. He did something as a kid that the fan clubs disagreed with, ergo he does not deserve to play for Bayern? The hell? He was a damn kid who wanted to belong somewhere, what's so unique about that? Honestly, your revelation as to why the fan clubs hate him is a far flimsier excuse than him having mocked Kahn. He's a professional footballer who is offering his services for Bayern, and is being paid to do so. And still some people feel the need to ridicule and undermine him.

So good luck with the project, because it's honestly a good idea. But I just hope those other fans do not share your views.
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Re: Schickeria — are they right or wrong?

Postby munichfan » Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:20 pm

Thanks Quaazi, project is going great and you're more than welcome to join someday.

In response to you suggesting my posts reek of arrogance, have a look at your own posts. You seem to be getting quite worked up about a little discussion on a forum. "I just hope" you don't use such agression in everyday life ;) A lot of the quotes you put in are not arrogant jabs. They are just facts, for example "It is difficult to explain the supporters scene over an internet platform". The topic is so complicated and profound that it would take hours to explain even in a conversation face-to-face.

Yes, I was trying to have you understand the fan clubs, because they are part of the club. Like my initial post said, the club does not only consist of the superstars you see on TV. You and I are also a part of it. It has nothing to do with if you support Schickeria or not. In fact, Schickeria doesn't play any role in my arguments whatsoever. In a sense, the name of this thread is wrong anyways. It wasn't only Schickeria that protested, it was the South Curve as a unit.

Let me end this discussion telling you that I agree with a lot that you have written in your posts.
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Re: Schickeria — are they right or wrong?

Postby quaazi » Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:01 pm

Well it's just that I was put off from even trying to understand the fan clubs after the whole Neuer fiasco. Time heals all wounds, I guess.
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Re: Schickeria — are they right or wrong?

Postby Aequitas1987 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:43 pm

I was wondering why this thread was still being consistently bumped up until I finally decided to check it out again. :lol:

Really interesting conversation between the two of you, very heated actually.

I learnt quite a bit about the relationship between the Ultras and our management through munichfan's posts. I started to feel more respect towards the ultras, they do not sound like the 'ultras' showcased in numerous TV SHOWS who are more concerned with getting into a fight than showcasing their passion. Had no idea they promoted projects for diversity and sexism etc.

Quazzi brings a decent point as well about our opinions (as keyboard warriors) are still researched/thought out opinions based on valid experience in supporting the club for years.

However, this is my opinion on the whole matter and I think it stands somewhere in the middle ground between the two of you, who seem to have taken fairly extreme standpoints on the matter.

I feel that the ULTRAS do deserve to be heard more so than internet fans, from their POV, they are individuals who spend time and money going to all the games, choreographing (felt really proud when Bayern vs Lyon choreography was shown) and in doing so you have to know that these individuals will have Bayern in their minds consistently week in and week out, organizing everything probably is done weeks or months in advance. Which also means that through direct access to Munich / Allianz Arena / Talks with the Board just makes them that much more knowledgeable than us. Why is it that Element and others who can understand German always speak in high regard about the transfermarket.de forums because the local german fans are more knowledgeable about many aspects and I don't think the majority of fans there even have a direct line of communication with the board like the Ultras do.

So my argument for respecting the ultras opinion is not based on type of supporter (internet or ultra) rather on pure knowledge and experience and in that sense (not all) most Ultras as described by munichfan should have an upper hand over us.

Now to the part I disagree with, munichfan claims that Ultras and being a Bayern Munich fan means more than the current short term team, its more about tradition and long term sustainability. I can understand that Hoeness has wronged you guys on multiple occasions recently but I do not understand how Boo-ing our players (in bad times as Schweinsteiger has pointed out on multiple occasions) helps in anyway. I felt that is very counter-productive and only makes our highly valued players get second thoughts when it comes to transfer season. This was a bigger worry for me (the booing during bad games) than the Neuer or Hoeness sagas. Secondly, I understand that Public displays are probably the easiest way to catch the Boards attention and correct me if i am wrong but doesn't the Bayern board allow for enough direct lines of communication with the Schikeria where these issues can be ironed out privately? For e.g. I agree completely with Quazzi on the Neuer aspect, he was a young kid when he was part of the ultra movement and stated something that he then reversed upon. If he was a mature adult and went back on his ideology (you could argue against that, maybe) but even so I think putting an idealogy on a pedestal ahead of the greater good of the club and players is nonsensical and definitely NOT based on "long term sustainability"

If the Neuer saga is a subsection of the problems with Hoeness (due to his disregard towards the Ultras) then its understandable, i.e. just another bullet in the barrel against Hoeness and his wrong doings to you guys but the way the media showcased it (and that is my only source of information) the Neuer saga super seeded any criticisms of Hoeness.

To sum it up, I value the Ultras support and regard their opinions highly but they need to choose to voice their opinions more appropriately and realize as per their ideology that sometimes those opinions are not for the greater good OR for long term sustainability of the club. Such as Booing our players during bad games or being anti-Neuer (who is for all intents and purposes our keeper for next 10 years).
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Re: Schickeria — are they right or wrong?

Postby munichfan » Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:15 pm

Aequitas1987 wrote:I can understand that Hoeness has wronged you guys on multiple occasions recently but I do not understand how Boo-ing our players (in bad times as Schweinsteiger has pointed out on multiple occasions) helps in anyway. I felt that is very counter-productive and only makes our highly valued players get second thoughts when it comes to transfer season. This was a bigger worry for me (the booing during bad games) than the Neuer or Hoeness sagas. Secondly, I understand that Public displays are probably the easiest way to catch the Boards attention and correct me if i am wrong but doesn't the Bayern board allow for enough direct lines of communication with the Schikeria where these issues can be ironed out privately? For e.g. I agree completely with Quazzi on the Neuer aspect, he was a young kid when he was part of the ultra movement and stated something that he then reversed upon. If he was a mature adult and went back on his ideology (you could argue against that, maybe) but even so I think putting an idealogy on a pedestal ahead of the greater good of the club and players is nonsensical and definitely NOT based on "long term sustainability"


Hi Aququitas1987.

I thoroughly enjoyed reading your post and found quite a lot of good food for thought in it.

Let me just correct you that neither the ultràs or any of the other supporters in the South Curve ever boo the players. Ever. Quite the contrary, they will support the team no matter what the score. Often, a 5:0 loss is even more of a reason to support the team loudly! Interestingly enough there are no hostilities towards Manuel Neuer, as one has accepted that supporting against a player of the team would be under the belt.

The whistling and booing you will frequently be able to hear come from the seated areas of the stadium. You will hear them if the team is winning less than 2:0 at half time and you will of course hear them if the team dares to lose. Similarly, you will be able to see the seats empty from the 75th minute onwards, no matter what the score.

I had initially wanted to ignore quaazi's comment on Neuer just being a kid, because the discussion was honestly dragging out and we were both not going to give in. Now you've repeated, I thought I'd tell you that Neuer was a member of the ultràs until the day he announced his move to Bayern. The night before announcing it, he met with the ultràs of Schalke to tell them his decision. All matches this season, including Germany's game the other day, his football boots have his old Schalke Ultrà groups initials engraved/stitched on them. This is not a childhood craze.

Thanks for an objective opinion, Aququitas1987!
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Re: Schickeria — are they right or wrong?

Postby Payam » Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:09 pm

munichfan wrote:Hi Aququitas1987.

All matches this season, including Germany's game the other day, his football boots have his old Schalke Ultrà groups initials engraved/stitched on them. This is not a childhood craze.


Not wanting to be a bother or anything, but do you have any source for this?
I could just as easily claim to be Jesus of Nazareth. :P

And so what if he did have those initials? I mean come on! It's not like he is going to sink us from the inside, he is an employee and will fight just as hard as anyone to win honours and please the fans.
He will surely come to love the club as time goes on.
Think Brazzo, Lucio (How I eagerly await Brazzos return to the Allianz! :D )

Ps. Forums are suppsoed to be places to banter, have a chat etc. Have you ever noticed how noone accepts defeat in a argument in forums? :lol:
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Re: Schickeria — are they right or wrong?

Postby munichfan » Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:39 pm

Everyone follows every step of Neuer. It is pretty much known by all within supporter circles.

In addition, here you have a German source revealing it to the public:
http://www.bild.de/sport/fussball/manue ... .bild.html
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Re: Schickeria — are they right or wrong?

Postby munichfan » Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:41 pm

And regarding your PS, the discussion on the past 3 pages was a bit more than banter. My bru quaazi felt the need to use strong words ;)
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Re: Schickeria — are they right or wrong?

Postby quaazi » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:06 pm

munichfan wrote:Everyone follows every step of Neuer. It is pretty much known by all within supporter circles.

In addition, here you have a German source revealing it to the public:
http://www.bild.de/sport/fussball/manue ... .bild.html

Wait, that's it? He wore shoes with a hidden message regarding Schalke in his old stadium when with the national team? Would we not like a gesture like this from one of our ex-players who have a chance to visit us?

The guy is obviously impressed by Bayern, look at his interviews and doe-eyes when he first arrived. It's not going to take long for him to become a Bayern faithful. Everyone usually does. Hell, if we could even make Robben the Mercenary say that he loves living in Bavaria, then I don't think Neuer is going to be problematic.

Like you said, we don't understand each other, and probably don't want to. To me the whole tribal territoriality of the ultra scene seems... well, juvenile (which is why I thought of Neuer's voyage as one). To you, it is important to the well-being of the club. That's the clincher, though, we still want all that is best for the club. I do not think Neuer wants otherwise either, so until he does, I don't think we should give him this hard of a time.
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Re: Schickeria — are they right or wrong?

Postby The Spyware » Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:04 am

munichfan wrote:The whistling and booing you will frequently be able to hear come from the seated areas of the stadium. You will hear them if the team is winning less than 2:0 at half time and you will of course hear them if the team dares to lose. Similarly, you will be able to see the seats empty from the 75th minute onwards, no matter what the score.



=D>

That Drives me MAD and I always wanted to crack the screen I am watching at when there is Booing

The Spyware wrote:The Audience in Allianz Arena is really annoying and I can't understand the huge Booing yesterday when we was leading 2/1 and retaining possesion


It will be a very difficult game in Hamburg specially with Ottl on the pitch


The Spyware wrote:I want the crowd in the allianz arena to GO HOME
it will increase our chances of winning


It's the main thing I love about Ultras is supporting whatever the situation , it's of the main principles of the Ulras mentality everywhere , Those Booing need to watch at their homes not in the stadium
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Re: Schickeria — are they right or wrong?

Postby FCBayernMunchen » Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:03 am

I personally think that the board should value the Ultras opinion, and not completely disregard it, because Bayern is a club for the fans by the fans, one might say. The ultras themselves must understand though, that while they were the loudest in expressing their discontent towards the Neuer signing, they were still a minority, and they should not expect to get what they want just because they want it. I do not think they do, but the booing towards Neuer in the first game was what was truly unacceptable to me. No real supporter should ever disrespect any player of the team, whatever his past. When he was still a Schalke player, the protests were understandable but once he joined Bayern, I'm afraid not.

Thankfully, this all seems to be behind us now.
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Re: Schickeria — are they right or wrong?

Postby munichfan » Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:02 pm

For those of you that speak German and are interested in the topic, here's a an article published today by the German magazine "Stern" - a high-end objective magazine in Germany.

http://www.stern.de/sport/fussball/das- ... 24159.html
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